i find it very annoying...

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

LS1 fbody's are still spanking Mustangs to this day. Won't change until the new Coyote 5.0 is released.

My old 4th Gens spanked new Mustangs out at the track easily. LOVED it. I mean...how could a car 7 years older than the one it was next to (and supposed to be in the same realm in) repeatedly beat it at the track?

Well, that's because the LS1 is THE SH!T and the 4th Gen came in at a measly 3,400lbs...or was mine at 3,245....can't remember....lol

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

WHY did they build crap-ass cars?!?? Hmm? Because they were inept? Because they just didn't care about the business anymore?

No. They built crap-ass cars because they were trying desperately to compete with the Japanese who could build average cars for far, far less! And the only way they could do that given the circumstances was to cut corners and "thin out" the product. Why? Because they entered the market at a time when America valued work more than money...when companies were willing to compensate their employees in times of prosperity. This sense of comradery put American business at a disadvantage, since off-shore companies had access to dirt-cheap labor...it choked the life out of American business and manufacturing, and I'm NOT talking about the auto business alone, here.

Did they make mistakes along the way? Heck yeah. We're human, it's what we do...but to try and pin EVERYTHING on poor business practices and shoddy workmanship irritates me to no end because it's only a small part of the story. The larger, and more relevant facet to this "gem" is that of the US's trade policy not properly protecting our businesses...and our society's willingness to complain but do nothing.No one is perfect. But don't pin the blame completely on ONE part of the equation.

WE helped to kill Industry, by being naive and all happy-go-lucky about foreign trade. WE helped to kill Industry by not choosing our products based on origin, rather by the penny we could "save" by buying the cheap crap. THEY (imports) helped kill Industry, by using unfair advantages. The products of the late 80s and 90s was the Auto Industry struggling to survive as all these factors slowly bled them to death.

Now, at the end of this 'revolution', I ask America at large...was the penny you saved worth it?




Finally...It wasn't a bailout like the banks recieved, it was a loan with strings attached...it's being paid back (and will be in full by July if all goes well), and this year the stock will begin to be sold off.

What I find AWFULLY interesting...is that America saved many American companies last year...we finally did what we've been bitching about doing for years (combating the import invasion and helping our own)...and yet still...still we bitch.

It's the ultimate irony I've noticed these past 6 months...our terrible, outrageous drive to contradict.


/Soap Box



....I apologize....but I needed to finally put that down into words.

Joe, have I ever told you how I absolutely LOVE your posts when you get irked? I mean.... I hope you never go off on ME like that!

Originally Posted by DGthe3

So then you are THE authority on 4th gens? From your 2 year experience with a lemon you can definitively say that the entire run of 4th gen Camaros, that they are all terrible cars? Does that mean the Grand Am, all of them from 1999-2005, are awesome because I haven't really had a problem with mine since I bought it?

LOVE your way of thinking too. LOGIC. Just because one had problems does NOT mean that ALL have problems. (sorry...want to make sure I spell it out)...

I had THREE 4th Gens...and ALL were AWESOME cars! Heck...I'd take ANOTHER 4th Gen if I had the cash. They were LIGHT, and they were NIBLE, and they were FREEEEEEAKIN' FAST! Yep. I love my 4th gens. The only widely known issues with the 4th Gens?...the window motors and the synchros in the trannies. Other than that, parts just didn't "fail" in that car....sorry.

Originally Posted by Ghost of Vincent Price

You said they were shit for the final 4th gen years...yet you owned a 1996...ooohh an lt1. You are aware that at 98 they got upgraded

Ever heard of an ls1? Yeah the same motor thats been beating up mustangs since 1998.

My guess is that you still dont know what your talking about too.

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by Revo1

Yeah, that bugs me too. Especially considering GM is returning the money...

This is in reference to the TARP money used 'save' GM & Chrysler from failing (which didn't work), correct?

Can I get to the root of the issue, from the perspective of 'the other side' (not that I am speaking for everyone... these are my words exclusively).

What got my goat about the whole bail-out of the financial industries, and the loans to GM & Chrysler was and is... There must be Failure in the Free Market which our country is based on. Without the ability to fail, we lose the ability to learn from what it was that caused us to fail in the first place. (Is anyone even being held accountable?)

Lets take it to a more personal level... I must fail in my own life, to learn, to grow. This is something that has been bred into me throughout my life as an American, hell... as a Human Being. It is my failures which make me who I am today, not just my achievements. (Achievement/Success is the product of you overcoming your difficulties, your failures!)

But getting back to what Dragoneye said, and he made a great point. Both the "too big to fail" concept, and the purchasing imports over domestic to save money are Moral Issues. (My argument is consistent though... don't by imports, and don't say anything is too big to fail. Learn from our mistakes and support your fellow American!)

In the end... I do hope for the best for my country, I hope for the best for GM, Chrysler, and Ford. And most of all, I hope for the best for my fellow Americans! But we all fail, it's what makes LIFE.


Without wrong there wouldn't be right.
Without bad there wouldn't be good.
Without failure there wouldn't be success.

[AZCamaroFan]

4thgens pos?? Those were great cars.

[305pride]

Originally Posted by azfan

4thgens pos?? Those were great cars.

i second that

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

WHY did they build crap-ass cars?!?? Hmm? Because they were inept? Because they just didn't care about the business anymore?

No. They built crap-ass cars because they were trying desperately to compete with the Japanese who could build average cars for far, far less! And the only way they could do that given the circumstances was to cut corners and "thin out" the product. Why? Because they entered the market at a time when America valued work more than money...when companies were willing to compensate their employees in times of prosperity. This sense of comradery put American business at a disadvantage, since off-shore companies had access to dirt-cheap labor...it choked the life out of American business and manufacturing, and I'm NOT talking about the auto business alone, here.

Did they make mistakes along the way? Heck yeah. We're human, it's what we do...but to try and pin EVERYTHING on poor business practices and shoddy workmanship irritates me to no end because it's only a small part of the story. The larger, and more relevant facet to this "gem" is that of the US's trade policy not properly protecting our businesses...and our society's willingness to complain but do nothing.No one is perfect. But don't pin the blame completely on ONE part of the equation.

WE helped to kill Industry, by being naive and all happy-go-lucky about foreign trade. WE helped to kill Industry by not choosing our products based on origin, rather by the penny we could "save" by buying the cheap crap. THEY (imports) helped kill Industry, by using unfair advantages. The products of the late 80s and 90s was the Auto Industry struggling to survive as all these factors slowly bled them to death.

Now, at the end of this 'revolution', I ask America at large...was the penny you saved worth it?




Finally...It wasn't a bailout like the banks recieved, it was a loan with strings attached...it's being paid back (and will be in full by July if all goes well), and this year the stock will begin to be sold off.

What I find AWFULLY interesting...is that America saved many American companies last year...we finally did what we've been bitching about doing for years (combating the import invasion and helping our own)...and yet still...still we bitch.

It's the ultimate irony I've noticed these past 6 months...our terrible, outrageous drive to contradict.


/Soap Box



....I apologize....but I needed to finally put that down into words.

You win.

[305pride]

Originally Posted by IOM-SS

Dragoneye I agree with you wholeheartedly

Let us see environmentalists tree hugging nazis chaning themselves to trees= Government making laws that the auto industry is unable to rewspond to = poor crappy cars finally the technology exists that a car, OUR CAMAROS, that is acceptiable to everyone. Al Gore piss off tell the people back east about global warming right now they will laugh in your face Mammoth Mountain has six feet of snow where is this global warming that we are all supposed to be worried about??? :5thgenvert:

global warming? well, its melting the ice caps. thats why its so effing cold in miami right now -_- because of the cold front coming down from the north. global warming doesnt mean ur guna feel the heat, your guna feel weather behaving how it shouldnt be.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by AngryAmish

Presidents almost exclusively ride in Cadillacs. I think there has been one Ford on the last 50 years. A Lincoln.

That didn't end very well either... Two words no President should want to hear: " Lincoln and Grassy knoll.":(

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by TAG UR IT

My old 4th Gens spanked new Mustangs out at the track easily. LOVED it. I mean...how could a car 7 years older than the one it was next to (and supposed to be in the same realm in) repeatedly beat it at the track?

there are 8 year old stock ('03) Cobra's beating new Camaro's. So what?


try to stay on topic before turning this into another mustang vs. camaro thread.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

That didn't end very well either... Two words no President should want to hear: " Lincoln and Grassy knoll.":(

your quote has 4 words.

[mmongi7]

It's not really that big of a deal. Especially when it's true! Don't get me wrong, I bought a camaro and support GM, but I also had some stock in GM and they let me down.

[rickerda]

Originally Posted by azfan

I don't know if it's because Chrysler is lame, but i don't hear people saying GM should have been let go as much as i do Chrysler.

It was all about size, GM was the worlds largest corporation. The impact of Chrysler folding would not have the same impact as GM going under

However, if things don't change we will be right back here in another 10 years.

[305pride]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

there are 8 year old stock ('03) Cobra's beating new Camaro's. So what?


try to stay on topic before turning this into another mustang vs. camaro thread.

but thats a cobra

[cHaotix]

Originally Posted by 305pride

global warming? well, its melting the ice caps. thats why its so effing cold in miami right now -_- because of the cold front coming down from the north. global warming doesnt mean ur guna feel the heat, your guna feel weather behaving how it shouldnt be.

This. Global warming is very real.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 305pride

global warming? well, its melting the ice caps. thats why its so effing cold in miami right now -_- because of the cold front coming down from the north. global warming doesnt mean ur guna feel the heat, your guna feel weather behaving how it shouldnt be.

If the Ice Caps were melting, wouldn't it mean the temperatures up there are warmer than usual, and the cold fronts would be less cold than they have been in the past?

But...http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archiv...king_cold.html

Originally Posted by cHaotix

This. Global warming is very real.

Maybe...http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html