If you believe GM will build a GEN 7 ICE Camaro, Read This

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The standards that the government is raising CAFE to are achievable. The technologies to get there exist or are very near production capability. The issue is, automakers that add those technologies to ICE vehicles will not be able to charge for them. How much are you willing to pay for a Gas Particulate Filter? Or dedicated advanced EGR? Or near diesel pressure injection systems?

Hiding behind marginally "technically feasible" solutions that drive costs up and consumers away is as effective an any mandate. Yes, Jim, we get your point, the gov't doesn't force anyone to buy anything. We can still walk, take a bus, or a taxi, or hope our aging ICE vehicles run longer than a normal lifespan. The "mandate" is the elimination of consumer options. Tell me again how the how gov't isn't forcing that upon us?

[90503]

As long as there is at least one ICE multi-million dollar exotic super-car for sale somewhere in the world that would still give you a choice. You aren't being forced to buy anything other that that one remaining ICE super-car.

You see? There is no EV mandate and you have a choice.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by 90503

You see? There is no EV mandate and you have a choice.

You're right, as usual... let me re-phrase:

"The 'mandate' is the elimination of affordable ICE consumer options."

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Hiding behind marginally "technically feasible" solutions that drive costs up and consumers away is as effective an any mandate. Yes, Jim, we get your point, the gov't doesn't force anyone to buy anything. We can still walk, take a bus, or a taxi, or hope our aging ICE vehicles run longer than a normal lifespan. The "mandate" is the elimination of consumer options. Tell me again how the how gov't isn't forcing that upon us?

Who’s hiding?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

As long as there is at least one ICE multi-million dollar exotic super-car for sale somewhere in the world that would still give you a choice. You aren't being forced to buy anything other that that one remaining ICE super-car.

You see? There is no EV mandate and you have a choice.

So then let’s talk about the great Station Wagon Mandate of the 1980 and 90s. You know, when families that wanted to continue the great American tradition of cross-country adventure in the comfort of the roomy family station wagon. All of a sudden the station wagon disappeared. Those money hungry automakers stopped making station wagons and started making minivans, totally eliminating the ability to buy a station wagon.

Ford has decided to soldier on with a V8 manual in the Mustang. GM has decided not to with the Camaro. So GM received the “mandate” but Ford didn’t?

Toyota is increasing the number of hybrids they sell and have only introduced one EV (x3 when you include the Lexus and Subaru versions of the same vehicle). Did they not receive the same “mandate”?

Each company determines their own product portfolio based on an alphabet soup of factors including fuel economy regs, emissions regs, crash test regs, domestic content requirements, wage positions in multiple potential manufacturing locations, segment dynamics, competitor activity, Tier I supplier technology development, local, national and global economy.

I spent the final 20 years of my career at GM nostrils deep in balancing all of these factors and lobbying for and against different vehicle programs based on interpretation and valuation of all these factors. To try to blame the lack of a particular vehicle on some government boogieman mandate is an over-simplification and incorrect assessment of how decisions get made on what gets made and what doesn’t. It almost never comes down to just one factor or because “somebody said so”.

[Gen6cyl]

Go orange nov. 5. Freedom

[Martinjlm]

Soooo…what was the topic again? Ah, yes…will there be a 7th Gen Camaro and will it have ICE content.

I think there is enough evidence to say that there will be a 7th Gen Camaro.

I think there is slightly less evidence that there might be a hybrid version (ie - ICE content). I think that there is also potential that there could be an Extended Range Electric Vehicle (EREV) version. Think Camaro and Volt have a baby and that would be on the right track.

[90503]

Are we ever gonna see any spy-shots, camo'd up cars, etc with EVs? Seems they just appear out of nowhere.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by 90503

Are we ever gonna see any spy-shots, camo'd up cars, etc with EVs? Seems they just appear out of nowhere.

New development cycle:

1. Take a skateboard with batteries in it
2. Strap on one to three electric motors
3. Some painted panels
4. Select S/M/L/XL
5. Select SUV/X-Over/or... well, just pick one of those two
6. ????
7. Raise price by $7500
8. PROFIT!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Are we ever gonna see any spy-shots, camo'd up cars, etc with EVs? Seems they just appear out of nowhere.

Yes. If you’re interested I can post some in the Electric Vehicles thread. They would be off topic in this thread.

[bigd1276]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Michigan Republican calls EPA regulation of CAFE (which doesn’t apply to EVs) a mandate. Shocker! Of course he does. That’s right out of the party handbook to politicize EVs. Forget word salad. Just find the Federal law that requires consumers to buy EVs and I’ll shut up. This is an easy bet because you cannot find what does not exist. The Federal Government has mandated that all government owned fleets will transition to EV. Their fleet, their call. But show me a Federal “mandate” that says consumers cannot buy an ICE vehicle. You can’t. Therefore, no mandate, regardless of how clueless politicians want to position it. Buy what you want.

Bringing a Republican and “party handbook” sure sounds like political discussion which I thought was not allowed here. It did however make clear where you stand, politically.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by bigd1276

Bringing a Republican and “party handbook” sure sounds like political discussion which I thought was not allowed here. It did however make clear where you stand, politically.

Fiercely independent and very sad about what a certain faction has done to a respected political party.

Now, back to 7th Gen Camaro.

[The Maverick]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I hear ya. I was just hoping that seeing how the term “mandate” is correctly used would help others.

If the practical effect is virtually the same as a mandate (walks like a duck and talks like a duck), it seems to be a bit pedantic in the context of an internet discussion forum to take people to task for reasonably using the term mandate as a shorthand description for what the government is doing.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by The Maverick

If the practical effect is virtually the same as a mandate (walks like a duck and talks like a duck), it seems to be a bit pedantic in the context of an internet discussion forum to take people to task for reasonably using the term mandate as a shorthand description for what the government is doing.

Exactly.

Lets say there are two trails in the woods. The first trail is the one most people want to take and the second is the one I want most people to take. So I have the first trail strewn with rocks and boulders making it much harder to walk down.

Have I mandated people take my preferred trail? No.

Have I artificially altered the landscape to get people to choose the trail I wish them to take? Yes.

In the end I have achieved the same result and it stinks either way.