Dodge ending challenger & charger production

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

Would having an EV make fake engine noises be even more "ricer" or "poser" than a fart can and giant wing on a Honda?

Yes, I think so.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by MIKZ28

Just because there is a waiting list for EV's does not mean everybody wants one. There are parts and chip shortages causing most of the waiting.

This. I also want to point out that you can't judge the first order banks as a long term result. The EVs are new and flashy. You will need to look at it after the newness wears off and then see how they are doing.

[Subcool]

I can’t wait to add another 8 hours of charging time to all my vacations out west. Sounds amazing sitting and waiting to go 2-300 more miles.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MIKZ28

Just because there is a waiting list for EV's does not mean everybody wants one. There are parts and chip shortages causing most of the waiting.

Actually I thought I had addressed this back on page 3 of this thread. If need be I can also note how much inventory was on dealer lots for each of these vehicles.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

A couple of imbeciles got together and assembled this list of vehicles delivered to customers last month. The green ones are EVs that nobody wants.

July Vehicle Deliveries
Dodge Charger: 8,755
Mach E: 4,970
Dodge Challenger: 4,667
Chevy Bolt EUV: 3,541
Ford Mustang: 3,367
Volkswagen ID.4: 2,730
Chevrolet Camaro: 2,448
Chevrolet Corvette: 2,283
Hyundai Ioniq 5: 1,978
Kia EV6: 1,716
Toyota 86: 1,497
Toyota Supra: 532
Mazda Miata: 268
Subaru BRZ: 228
BMW Z4: 175

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by MIKZ28

Just because there is a waiting list for EV's does not mean everybody wants one. There are parts and chip shortages causing most of the waiting.

Yep, you will see very low EV production numbers until all these battery plants come online. Tesla is way ahead in their production capacity but they are limited by supply and had to increase the price a bunch of times in the last year or so. I think EVs will do well once they get to that $30-$35k price point for folks that have an easy way to charge them at home.

I think it will take a lot longer to win over the enthusiast crowd. Enthusiasts usually need a deeper connection to the vehicle and EVs tend to disconnect you from the driving experience. I own a Tesla and I like it for what it is but I don't look forward to driving it like I do the ZL1. Also, with the exception of wheels and basics suspension you can forget about modding.

That said, it looks like Tesla is starting to make its Toolbox diagnostic software available due to the right the repair laws.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-rele...ght-to-repair/

[Devstrike]

Combining that list of July deliveries 24,219 were ICE and 14,935 were EVs. While EV is increasing in sales the overall sales picture still does not dispute MIKZ28's claim of not everyone wants an EV.

They are forcing it on the performance cars but people that want an ICE performance car doesn't need to get one from a manufacturer. They can just build one at many places find a body and build it yourself or have someone do it for you.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Actually I thought I had addressed this back on page 3 of this thread. If need be I can also note how much inventory was on dealer lots for each of these vehicles.

I think those number are accurate but if you check on each of those vehicles the demand is there, they just can't build them. For example, look at all the folks on the forum here trying to buy Camaros but can't. The only ones on the lots are V6s or you have to pay big markups if you find a desirable trim.

Same for the GR86. Hot car, can't find one and if you do it is probably an automatic and expect to pay $5k over. I called on a BRZ they said they can get order one for delivery in January.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

Combining that list of July deliveries 24,219 were ICE and 14,935 were EVs. While EV is increasing in sales the overall sales picture still does not dispute MIKZ28's claim of not everyone wants an EV.

They are forcing it on the performance cars but people that want an ICE performance car doesn't need to get one from a manufacturer. They can just build one at many places find a body and build it yourself or have someone do it for you.

That was a very short and specific group of vehicles. The totals don’t really tell you anything. It’s about the relative positioning of the vehicles. I only included enthusiast based cars and a few non-Tesla EVs. I intentionally included the types of EVs most enthusiasts wouldn’t give a damn about. The point is, somebody does give a damn about them and they’re buying them in greater numbers than we are buying Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That was a very short and specific group of vehicles. The totals don’t really tell you anything. It’s about the relative positioning of the vehicles. I only included enthusiast based cars and a few non-Tesla EVs. I intentionally included the types of EVs most enthusiasts wouldn’t give a damn about. The point is, somebody does give a damn about them and they’re buying them in greater numbers than we are buying Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers.

Totally agree. We are a dying breed. Vehicles are just appliances now to most. Most of the younger generation doesn't even like to drive, they would rather UBER.

It went from being the best time for muscle cars to what looks like will be the end for good this time. You know when you are waiting for Dodge E-musclecar reveals it is over.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I think those number are accurate but if you check on each of those vehicles the demand is there, they just can't build them. For example, look at all the folks on the forum here trying to buy Camaros but can't. The only ones on the lots are V6s or you have to pay big markups if you find a desirable trim.

Same for the GR86. Hot car, can't find one and if you do it is probably an automatic and expect to pay $5k over. I called on a BRZ they said they can get order one for delivery in January.

True for the GR86 and BRZ. A little less true for most of the others. I’ll repost the list here and include units in stock and days in inventory to help complete the picture.

Typically the industry likes to keep 30-60 days in inventory. Less than that indicates that there may be a trim mix problem, as you’ve suggested. Significantly less than that (single digits / low double digits) indicates that supply is not keeping up with demand. This could be because they can’t build them fast enough due to ramp up issues (new vehicle introductions), parts problems (chips, seats, etc) or customers really want those cars and they’re selling better than expected. Look at VW ID.4. I can’t imagine that most people here would want one. But they sell better than Camaro and have only 4 day dealer stock. That means they could sell more if the dealers had more. That’s how waiting lists happen. Camaro has a 52 day stock. Close to optimal. But try to find a blue 2SS convertible with TR6060 and NPP. Good luck with that. Mix issue.

July Vehicle Deliveries (Stock / Days on Hand)
Dodge Charger: 8,755 (10,330 / 31)
Mach E: 4,970 (5,180 / 27)
Dodge Challenger: 4,667 (9,744 / 54)
Chevrolet Bolt EUV: 3,541 (8,198 / 60)
Ford Mustang: 3,367 (5,311 / 41)
Volkswagen ID.4: 2,730. (449 / 4)
Chevrolet Camaro: 2,448 (4,899 / 52)
Chevrolet Corvette: 2,283 (1,266 / 14)
Hyundai Ioniq 5: 1,978 (166 / 2)
Kia EV6: 1,716 (597 / 9)
Toyota 86: 1,497 (1,008 / 18)
Toyota Supra: 532 (632 / 31)
Mazda Miata: 268 (78 / 8)
Subaru BRZ: 228 (30 / 3)

Vehicles with low sales and high days on hand are a problem. It means the dealers have them but the customers don’t really care. Nothing on this list is in that territory. Vehicles with high sales and low days on hand means the dealers are turning them over as fast as they can get them. Mach E and ID.4 are probably the best examples of that on this list. Also Corvette. Too early to say for Ioniq and Kia EV6, since they’re just coming on market. The deliveries could be just getting caught up on pre-orders.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by flobb

before crash tests and improving the survivability of a pedestrian being hit by 0.0000000000000001% started dictating design

This is just bad data.

Interesting tid bit, when I worked for a Japanese OEM many years ago, the odds of getting killed BY a car were greater than getting killed in a car.

Pedestrian density plays a big factor in this.

Originally Posted by MIKZ28

Just because there is a waiting list for EV's does not mean everybody wants one. There are parts and chip shortages causing most of the waiting.

I don’t think anyone suggested everybody wants one. M a big proponent of EVs but I don’t want one…….yet.

Originally Posted by Devstrike

This. I also want to point out that you can't judge the first order banks as a long term result. The EVs are new and flashy. You will need to look at it after the newness wears off and then see how they are doing.

Fact, next year there will likely not be a waiting list for Lyriqs. But I would have thought that for Broncos and it’s still got awaiting list.

Originally Posted by Subcool

I can’t wait to add another 8 hours of charging time to all my vacations out west. Sounds amazing sitting and waiting to go 2-300 more miles.

Fast chargers are way faster than that. 80% in 18 minutes. So if you have a 300 mile range car, you’d be spending 18 minutes every 200 miles or so. Longer than a gas and go but if you add lunch and a potty stop you are about there. But this remaining hurdle is why I remain hesitant. Fast chargers aren’t at every exit on the highway so it still requires planning you don’t have to do in an ICE. BUT THE EV owners I know have crossed this emotional hurdle and accept the planning necessary.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

Would having an EV make fake engine noises be even more "ricer" or "poser" than a fart can and giant wing on a Honda?

EVs below a certain speed are required to have a sound generator to protect the visually impaired.

But I always laugh at this one……

https://youtu.be/4NgSZ8sjDgU

[The Maverick]

Originally Posted by Subcool

I can’t wait to add another 8 hours of charging time to all my vacations out west. Sounds amazing sitting and waiting to go 2-300 more miles.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Fast chargers are way faster than that. 80% in 18 minutes. So if you have a 300 mile range car, you’d be spending 18 minutes every 200 miles or so. Longer than a gas and go but if you add lunch and a potty stop you are about there. But this remaining hurdle is why I remain hesitant. Fast chargers aren’t at every exit on the highway so it still requires planning you don’t have to do in an ICE. BUT THE EV owners I know have crossed this emotional hurdle and accept the planning necessary.

Back in the late nineties I drove from northern California to Mazatlan, an awesome four-day road trip, to meet up with friends at their timeshare. I made it a three-day drive back, by doing Arizona to northern California in one looong day.

This seems like an experience that is currently (and for the foreseeable future) impossible with an EV?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

EVs below a certain speed are required to have a sound generator to protect the visually impaired.

But I always laugh at this one……

https://youtu.be/4NgSZ8sjDgU

How can you NOT laugh at that one.