What Does This Tell Us?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Modernmusclecar

Dont think so. Why mess with success. Dodge noticed what happened to the Camaro. At car meets people walk right by my 2 buddies cars.....a 2021 lt1 10 speed in white and a 2021 1le 10 speed in red.The car they are checking out is a a 3rd friends 2016 Hellcat in plum crazy. That so called tired design put the Camaro in 3rd place.

To be fair, if that friend had a base 5.7 liter V8 Challenger, they would walk right by that, too. If one of those Camaros was instead a ZL1 they would probably check it out before getting to the Hellcat. At car meets I see plenty of people stopping to take a pic or try to get a peek in my ZL1's interior.

That's just how these things work. The high horsepower cars attract attention. The base model V8 trims, not so much. Same goes for Mustang GT. At car meets, mine was a dime a dozen; despite being very nice, it didn't draw a crowd or get people checking it out much (I got some compliments away from car meets, though). Never did I see someone snap a pic of my GT in the wild. I've seen it plenty of times with my ZL1.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

No they are not. Show me the challenger VIR or Ring times.

Very few care about ring times or vir. Most people who buy these cars do not track them on a closed circuit. Like I said the Camaro is probably the best handling but red light to red light or at a dragstrip both Ford and Dodges top offerings are faster. Chevy built a very capable track car but guess what that's not what people want and the sales prove it. They spent all their time making sure this generation would be a corner carver but forgot to make it an actual car that people would want to use as a daily driver and it shows with the lousy trunk space, poor visibility, and virtually no leg room for anyone in the rear seat.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Puddin

but red light to red light or at a dragstrip

You are asking for EVs so hard right now...

Red light to red light or dragstrip is just the dumbest thing ever. That's how we got into the mess of the US making crap sports cars in the first place.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Puddin

Very few care about ring times or vir. Most people who buy these cars do not track them on a closed circuit. Like I said the Camaro is probably the best handling but red light to red light or at a dragstrip both Ford and Dodges top offerings are faster. Chevy built a very capable track car but guess what that's not what people want and the sales prove it. They spent all their time making sure this generation would be a corner carver but forgot to make it an actual car that people would want to use as a daily driver and it shows with the lousy trunk space, poor visibility, and virtually no leg room for anyone in the rear seat.

The Camaro grew up and became a real car. Sadly, you’re right, too many alpha males just want to do a burnout leaving the cruise night. Meh. Lame. A well balanced, good handling car can be thoroughly enjoyed on public roads too. It’s not just track days where you benefit. Quite honestly, I’d get bored silly with some chunky dodge that has more body roll than my Buick LaCrosse. And chargers are FOUR door cars. Automatically lose all credibility, IMHO. Just a family sedan with an engine out of a space ship stuffed in it. Whatever.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

You are asking for EVs so hard right now...

Red light to red light or dragstrip is just the dumbest thing ever. That's how we got into the mess of the US making crap sports cars in the first place.

Best post I’ve read in a while. It just sucks that GM did the right thing with the Camaro and it backfired. As I said, the Camaro grew up. It became a real car. It evolved. The other two just add weird colors and stripe packages slapped on a body that covers a dinosaur tech chassis. But the people love them. So frustrating. But, it is what it is.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

You are asking for EVs so hard right now...

Red light to red light or dragstrip is just the dumbest thing ever. That's how we got into the mess of the US making crap sports cars in the first place.

Guess it isn't dumb to Dodge because just about every commercial they put out has some kind of hot rodding/drag racing. I don't hear any news of them axing their car.

[zaimer]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

The Camaro grew up and became a real car. Sadly, you’re right, too many alpha males just want to do a burnout leaving the cruise night. Meh. Lame. A well balanced, good handling car can be thoroughly enjoyed on public roads too. It’s not just track days where you benefit. Quite honestly, I’d get bored silly with some chunky dodge that has more body roll than my Buick LaCrosse. And chargers are FOUR door cars. Automatically lose all credibility, IMHO. Just a family sedan with an engine out of a space ship stuffed in it. Whatever.



Best post I’ve read in a while. It just sucks that GM did the right thing with the Camaro and it backfired. As I said, the Camaro grew up. It became a real car. It evolved. The other two just add weird colors and stripe packages slapped on a body that covers a dinosaur tech chassis. But the people love them. So frustrating. But, it is what it is.

Are you talking smack with an ordered V6 Camaro...? My Nissan Z cars had comparable performance, if not better, and they were built in 2008/2009..the two I had owned anyway. I would hardly call a car being built FOURTEEN model years after, with arguably any real performance advantages the holy grail. Those are real sports cars. To this day, if I could get my hands on one again, I would still put it up against a current model V6 Camaro. I've driven & owned numerous models of performance vehicles and I tell it as I see it. It doesn't matter if I own (or had owned) whichever car at hand - I will praise it & talk crap about it with the best of them.

The V6 would have to really stretch it's legs to even keep with an RT, which is the entry level for the performance category. The 392 and up would absolutely eat anything like that for lunch, no hesitation whatsoever. The SS's would definitely have a run for their money as well. The LARGEST difference with the Dodge/Chevy competition would be when we look at say a ZL1 vs a Hellcat on an actual track. The Hellcat will be a bit too heavy, lack in the corners a bit, and traction will be an issue (assuming stock vs stock). whereas the ZL1 is in it's natural habitat.

Have you driven any of the higher end Dodge products? First of all, the Charger does not directly compete with the Camaro IMO. The Chargers are a difference class of car, with different things to offer. Secondly, the body roll on the performance models is not horrible, given the size of the car. Particularly on the widebody models, with adaptable suspension, the handling is rock solid. I would even venture to say that it is a stiffer ride than my 2SS (non-MRC).

[laynlo15]

GM hasn't event spent 1/10 of 1 percent on Camaro adds compared to Mopar. Pretty sad because the Camaro is a pretty dam good performance car. I was at my dealer yesterday and a new Camaro just arrived that was sold and they had another Zl1 that was being delivered also but no other Camaro's on the lot. Hell they usually have 200 trucks on the lot and they only had 6 new trucks. This chip shortage has screwed the market up so bad for the last 1.5 years that I'm surprised some dealers are still in business. The Camaro is a great car too bad GM just didn't promote it.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Puddin

Very few care about ring times or vir. Most people who buy these cars do not track them on a closed circuit. Like I said the Camaro is probably the best handling but red light to red light or at a dragstrip both Ford and Dodges top offerings are faster. Chevy built a very capable track car but guess what that's not what people want and the sales prove it. They spent all their time making sure this generation would be a corner carver but forgot to make it an actual car that people would want to use as a daily driver and it shows with the lousy trunk space, poor visibility, and virtually no leg room for anyone in the rear seat.

You are not wrong, but there is a factor of relevancy here. Everybody isn't driving a top model. In Detroit, Chargers and Challengers are a dime a dozen. And even though you'll probably see more Hellcats here than anywhere else on the planet, I come across more R/Ts and ScatPacks than anything else. I smoked an R/T in a BMW I3 EV. And I made a ScatPack shift lanes when he thought he could pull me when I was behind him at a light. My little SS vert ain't a-scared o' no Dodge that ain't a Hellcat.

Similarly, there are probably more GT350s here than just about anywhere except LA and more than a few GT500s. Most are Mustang EcoBoosts and 5.0s. Not worried about any of them. Sure there are some Mustangs with Whipples that will pull the paint off my hood, but then they're s'posed to do that. Stock for stock, I like my chances with any similarly equipped Mustang GT vert.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Puddin

Very few care about ring times or vir. Most people who buy these cars do not track them on a closed circuit. Like I said the Camaro is probably the best handling but red light to red light or at a dragstrip both Ford and Dodges top offerings are faster. Chevy built a very capable track car but guess what that's not what people want and the sales prove it. They spent all their time making sure this generation would be a corner carver but forgot to make it an actual car that people would want to use as a daily driver and it shows with the lousy trunk space, poor visibility, and virtually no leg room for anyone in the rear seat.

Stop light to stop light a Hellcat won't beat a ZL1 as they come from the factory. ZL1 launches better due to less weight (600+ lbs) and better weight distribution. A GT500 might tie a ZL1 0-60 (i.e., stop light to stop light), as long as they don't use the silly "launch control" with a 1 second delay - then they will get walked by the ZL1 badly.

Not for nothing, but the Mustang has horrid rear space room as well. I've owned both (2018 GT), they are pretty similar back there. FWIW, the Camaro is the physically smallest of the three. Compared to the Mustang it is shorter in height (~1.5"+) and ~1" narrower, and has a longer dash to axle ratio than the others as well, meaning the occupant area starts slightly further back in the car. All that adds up to a slightly smaller interior compared to the Mustang. The Challenger is massive, in comparison.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Puddin

I think you wildly overestimate the Camaro being the best performance car in its segment. Best handling sure I'll give you that but best overall nah no way.

The 6th gen Camaro is the best overall performance car in most of the trim levels in its segment (of the 3 pony cars). For the money, I'd argue nothing can touch the overall performance offered by a ZL1 and on down to the SS 1LE as well.

Starting at the V8 entry and moving up (I realize some of these trims aren't sold anymore, but they are recent enough):

SS > base GT and 5.7 Hemi Challenger
SS > GT PP1 and 392 Challenger
SS 1LE > Mach 1 and GT PP2
ZL1 > GT350 and = base GT500 (ZL1 handles better, stops better, grips better, steers better, has a better sorted chassis, and has more standard tech and features, is ~250 lbs lighter, but is a little slower in a straight line above 60 mph - best stock e.t. of 10.6 sec for the GT500 vs 10.9 in the ZL1)
ZLE < GT500 CFTP because the CFTP is about as fast around a track despite being a more comfortable ride, and quicker in a straight line. But a lot more expensive.

The A10 GT with 3.55 rear end is slightly quicker than an A10 SS (1 or 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile), but not enough to offset how much better the SS performs in other performance metrics compared to a base GT. M6 to M6 the SS is generally quicker than the GT, in addition to handling better.

[Malbjey]

Originally Posted by zaimer

Are you talking smack with an ordered V6 Camaro...? My Nissan Z cars had comparable performance, if not better, and they were built in 2008/2009..the two I had owned anyway. I would hardly call a car being built FOURTEEN model years after, with arguably any real performance advantages the holy grail. Those are real sports cars. To this day, if I could get my hands on one again, I would still put it up against a current model V6 Camaro. I've driven & owned numerous models of performance vehicles and I tell it as I see it. It doesn't matter if I own (or had owned) whichever car at hand - I will praise it & talk crap about it with the best of them.

Here we go again....

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

2009 Nissan 370Z NISMO, 3:12.0
2017 Chevrolet Camaro 1LE, 3:04.0

Those times aren't even close. Maybe you can provide C&D your expertise. Or you just think 'performance advantage' is strictly straight line speed.

Also, newsflash--nobody has been developing faster NA 6 cylinder engines, with the exception of Porsche, in a long time. It isn't just a V6 Camaro thing. Most 6 cylinder cars making over 350hp are turbo/supercharged, and have been that way for a long time.

Also:

2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392, 3:09.4
2017 Chevrolet Camaro 1LE, 3:04.0

So a V8 Challenger is slower around a track than a V6 Camaro.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The 6th gen Camaro is the best overall performance car in most of the trim levels in its segment (of the 3 pony cars). For the money, I'd argue nothing can touch the overall performance offered by a ZL1 and on down to the SS 1LE as well.

Starting at the V8 entry and moving up (I realize some of these trims aren't sold anymore, but they are recent enough):

SS > base GT and 5.7 Hemi Challenger
SS > GT PP1 and 392 Challenger
SS 1LE > Mach 1 and GT PP2
ZL1 > GT350 and = base GT500 (ZL1 handles better, stops better, grips better, steers better, has a better sorted chassis, and has more standard tech and features, is ~250 lbs lighter, but is a little slower in a straight line above 60 mph - best stock e.t. of 10.6 sec for the GT500 vs 10.9 in the ZL1)
ZLE < GT500 CFTP because the CFTP is about as fast around a track despite being a more comfortable ride, and quicker in a straight line. But a lot more expensive.

The A10 GT with 3.55 rear end is slightly quicker than an A10 SS (1 or 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile), but not enough to offset how much better the SS performs in other performance metrics compared to a base GT. M6 to M6 the SS is generally quicker than the GT, in addition to handling better.

You're proving my point. Chevy spent too much time trying to make this a road course racer and forgot about everything else. Your last paragraph is all that's needed to see one of the reasons why the Mustang sells more. Most people aren't ripping these cars around a track or even have a road where the can utilize all the handling components the Camaro has. Straight line speed sells for the pony cars and when you have the Mustang that's faster (A10 vs A10 or A8) and the 392 which is just as fast a an SS which do you think are going to sell more especially with the other 2 being more daily driver friendly. So calling the Camaro the best overall is a definite no from me.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Puddin

You're proving my point. Chevy spent too much time trying to make this a road course racer and forgot about everything else. Your last paragraph is all that's needed to see one of the reasons why the Mustang sells more. Most people aren't ripping these cars around a track or even have a road where the can utilize all the handling components the Camaro has. Straight line speed sells for the pony cars and when you have the Mustang that's faster (A10 vs A10 or A8) and the 392 which is just as fast a an SS which do you think are going to sell more especially with the other 2 being more daily driver friendly. So calling the Camaro the best overall is a definite no from me.

I didn't prove your point. We're talking about overall performance. Straight line acceleration is only one aspect of performance. Handling, grip, braking, chassis and steering feel, etc., all make up the complete performance view. And a Mustang GT configured a specific way (GT PP1 A10) is 1 or 2 tenths quicker in the 1/4 mile than an auto SS - still very close. A base GT A10 is slower due to the 3.15s and has all seasons, so it's not even a contest on any other performance metric. An M6 GT in any configuration is slower than SS M6. A couple of tenths in one configuration is hardly enough to call the Mustang the better performance car.

The 392 is about equal to an SS in a straight line. No comparison in other performance metrics.

I agree that the Camaro is slightly less user friendly than a Mustang (having owned both) in a few specific ways. But the Mustang is not a better performance car, overall, trim for trim. Maybe a more usable car with close performance when configured with the right options or packages, but not better overall performance.

[crysalis_01]

What about the performance of the volume sellers, say the EBHPP vs the 2.0 or 3.6 1LE's? I ask because it seems that the non-v8 models far outsell the others. So perhaps reviewing their performance, or perceived performance, also plays a large factor.