1400 HP Mustang Prototype

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

How many laps can it do at VIR before the batteries are toast?

They never tell you that part, just one off drag times

The first run will be 1400hp, the 6th run will be about 250hp.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by caSStro18

After one lap it probably needs a charge. Talk about a long pit stop! Lol

And don't forget, even with 1400 HP it has to beep when it backs up.

However electric care are coming for our V8s. We need to get used to it. I will keep mine. Electric power is better for the planet which is a really important thing to keep in mind when we make decisions where we have a choice. I feel guilty, but at least this guzzler can get over 30 mpg on the highway.

[Nothing like an SS]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

And don't forget, even with 1400 HP it has to beep when it backs up.

However electric care are coming for our V8s. We need to get used to it. I will keep mine. Electric power is better for the planet which is a really important thing to keep in mind when we make decisions where we have a choice. I feel guilty, but at least this guzzler can get over 30 mpg on the highway.

Battery manufacturing and disposal is also quite toxic to the environment. It is only swapping one polluting sin for another. It makes people feel better as they believe the hype that battery powered cars are "clean". Well, yes, the car itself does not pollute, but a battery manufacturing plant does terrible things to the planet.
As for disposal of spent batteries, well that is a steaming pile of planet poison, I suppose we could just jettison them all into to space.....

Nothing "clean" about electric cars at all.....

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If you were doing 225 mph in a quarter mile race (and that's just the avg speed if you could do 1/4 in 4 seconds) in a grocery getter street legal ugly CUV/SUV that also could drive around with 200+ mile ranges and not get pulled over by cops due to noise and making people pass out from gas fumes from an obviously stroked out non-catted big block, You wouldn't care if they called it a Ford Challenger Yenko. If it was less than a corvette, you'd buy one.

No, I wouldn't. No matter what its name might or might not be. I'd be giving up too much for too little in return. It doesn't matter what other people might prefer or how many other people prefer something; they don't get to dictate my preferences.

That video (and a somewhat longer one I also watched) is just the newest kool-aid flavor. 0-60 was the old one.



Norm

[cellsafemode]

that's the same anti-progress nonsense that keeps the manual transmission alive in this hobby.

it's anti change simply because it's change. Ignoring the benefits and clinging onto whatever negative that can be found no matter how insignificant.

I'm sure there are still subsets of camaro fans who dont think the 5th and 6th gen are camaro enough to bother acknowledging. I'm sure there are subsets of this hobby that wont touch a car with fuel injection because 'Puters are the devil'.

there's always some set of people resisting something better for little to no good reason.

Either way, welcome to the new car order. Everything is going to be a CUV/SUV/Truck because that's all people are buying. Car manufacturers will call them whatever brands they have at their disposal because they're not going to let them die and start a new one if they dont have to...and they dont. We'll see a camaro cuv ...for sure. and It'll probably be the only camaro we see unless Dodge suddenly decides to stop building chargers. And it wont take long for this new camaro cuv to totally become what everyone sees as a camaro ...because the general public doesn't care about heritage, they just recognize a name and see a nifty cuv that fits more than 2 people and appears to be more masculine than other cuv's.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Either way, welcome to the new car order. Everything is going to be a CUV/SUV/Truck because that's all people are buying. .

i don't know, i've found articles about wagons making a comeback, i think there could be real suv fatigue out there. I also think the automotive world is getting more diverse. The apparent consolidating around suv's is non-enthusiasts getting more of what they want, and while the enthusiast market is contracting, the cars keep getting better, i see it getting more specialized as it gets smaller.

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Nobody buys pony cars outside of the US. You're talking a couple thousand more maybe worldwide including canada and mexico.


Tesla is still spending tons of cash _expanding_ ... It's not that they're selling each car at a loss, it's that part of the cost they have to make up is the massive infrastructure growth needed ...which will be recouped since once it's built it doesn't need to be re-built every year.



And tesla isn't the only electric car being built. But just looking at model 3's. They sold more of those than all 3 main pony cars combined.

So however popular you think mustang and camaro and chargers are, tesla's are more popular. They just dont have 20 years of older cars on the road yet to look it.



All cars have a depressing outlook in the market. Electric cars still being limited to high density areas where those markets have been hit the hardest in demand (since they're also the places where cars are the least actual necessity due to public transit availability). So I would look at that data as less that people dont want cars...and more that those people who would normally have purchased one, decided not to purchase anything ...or purchased used cars at a much lower cost. It's not like ICE is eating electric's lunch. They're all getting hammered.





Dont talk to me about the viability of GM and Ford and others. It's not like we didn't have to keep GM from going bankrupt and bought in pieces by their competitors in the last decade. Ford managed to avoid the same bailout just barely. They all get subsidized at the local and state level to various degrees by agreeing to exist in a given location. Oil itself gets subsidized.

And out of those various companies, they're all incentivized to draw out selling ICE vehicles as long as they can before switching to electric...and any new company that isn't incentivized to do so finds out just how high of a barrier to entry a car company has by incumbent companies ...especially when you have to operate thru a dealer franchise system that further increases the initial cost to any given company looking to make a start.

You can pretend companies are shoving electric down your throat all you want. The fact is, people dont care if the car is powered by electric or gasoline. The majority of people hate driving. They hate traveling with other people more though. So driving is a necessary evil and whatever is cheapest and the least maintenance having is going to win. And we are not only over the border where that's beginning to be true for electric even without tax writeoffs, but the whole range anxiety is approaching moot as well for the vast majority of drivers.

There is no all powerful electric goblin forcing companies to do it's bidding. If anything, the existing companies want to keep that away from the public as long as they can because it is less profitable in the long run to have things that dont break down as much or require as much service. We're seeing popularity and interest (if not so much the actual buying) because the people want it.

Just like we have a bunch of CUV's and SUV's and trucks dominating current car sales. It's not because companies think they're better or because the right wing demands we all drive trucks for Merica. It's because the people want that garbage despite them not being fun or interesting vehicles for driving on roads.

So the same stupid public that wants and is getting CUV's and SUV's and such is going to result in all vehicles moving to electric for the same reasons. We can only hope that at least some of what's offered tries to be fun because we're not a big enough market to make them change.

You seem awfully defensive. I just pointed out some stats, not opinions. Long before the pandemic sales in EV vehicles dropped from year to year, 2018 to 2019. The U.S. Dept of Transportation surveyed 49k U.S. EV owners and more than half of EV owners go back to IC engine cars after their first experience with an EV. That may be in part to Tesla's poor quality which is well known but also their inconvenience. If you can't retain customers that is a problem.


Lots of hopium in the EV space so far little in the way of results. It's always about next year despite the huge advantages they have with tremendous subsidies by gov'ts at all levels. The media hype is non-stop, yet people aren't buying. Sales suck, always a lot of media hype on the percentage increase in sales, the actual volumes are trivial in a market of 1.5 bill. IC cars with 90m new ones sold each year. The IC market has expanded far beyond the rate of EV sales, China used to buy 2m cars a year in 2000 when they entered the WTO, two years ago they bought 28m IC engine cars.


Sure Tesla is expanding when they stop the pyramid scheme will come to light. Year after year no profits to speak of, last year despite what the media called a banner year $862m in losses. Model S sales fell 49%, Model X fell 36% in 2019. Model 3 cannibalized their sales. Tesla still builds the Model 3 in a big tent in California, the quality issues are legendary. How is Solar City doing with those solar roofs? Elon is great at hype, it has become a cult. Yet with all that the market cap of Tesla is greater than all three GM, Ford and Chrysler combined. Look out below , seen this before, Nortel , Worldcom, a long list...

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Battery manufacturing and disposal is also quite toxic to the environment. It is only swapping one polluting sin for another. It makes people feel better as they believe the hype that battery powered cars are "clean". Well, yes, the car itself does not pollute, but a battery manufacturing plant does terrible things to the planet.
As for disposal of spent batteries, well that is a steaming pile of planet poison, I suppose we could just jettison them all into to space.....

Nothing "clean" about electric cars at all.....

Not to mention the biggest market for electric vehicles is China and where do they get 70% of their power from, coal. So now your driving a coal powered car. They still are building massive coal generation facilities in China, they don't give a rats ass about pollution.

China will steal Tesla's lunch, that is what they do. Sure come on over and build a plant , next year we will copy all your secrets and build our own, at a cheaper price.

[UnknownJinX]

My eyes hurt. My ears hurt. Oh, and cue the obligatory "Shelby rolling in his grave" joke.

Oh well, at least you get a loud warning when this thing plows into the crowd as Mustangs do.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

...that's the same anti-progress nonsense that keeps the manual transmission alive in this hobby.

it's anti change simply because it's change. Ignoring the benefits and clinging onto whatever negative that can be found no matter how insignificant.

I'm sure there are still subsets of camaro fans who dont think the 5th and 6th gen are camaro enough to bother acknowledging. I'm sure there are subsets of this hobby that wont touch a car with fuel injection because 'Puters are the devil'.

there's always some set of people resisting something better for little to no good reason...

But a lot of things about EVs are a valid concern. I am not anti-EV, they work great for some situations. For others, not so much. For me, I can do with a car and a bicycle on the west coast. The bicycle is great when I don't want to deal with parking and when the distance is a bit too long to walk but a bit too short to drive(for example, it used to take me 20 minutes to walk to uni, but on a bicycle it takes me 10 minutes, same as a car due to the extra time spent on finding parking). It also means I get to exercise and there is no emissions*!

*Assuming we don't look at the emissions caused by whatever food I eat and we don't count, uh, "tailpipe emissions".

I think there is some shoving EV down the throat going on around the world, as they are forcing it on people when the tech isn't there to answer everyone's needs. Are you gonna build the infrastructure for charging as quickly as you are pushing the EVs? Are you gonna be able to generate enough electricity in the worst case scenario consumption? Are you gonna build a garage for me so I can actually charge overnight? All questions that need answers.

As for the pollution argument, here is a video on the subject:



Basically, if you keep your car long enough, the pollution does get offset.

Lastly, how do you define "better"? In some cities, you still see horse wagons for sightseeing. It's not used as a major way of transportation anymore, but people go on these for novelty and fun. Same as riding a horse. From an engineering point of view, it makes no sense, but we are humans, not robots. We have a thing called emotion and we can like/dislike things. That's why the stick shift is alive - I like driving one, that's all that matters and I am perfectly aware that autos nowadays are better in objective measures. I especially love it when someone driving an Accord tries to tell me that autos are objectively better. Fun fact, no matter how fast your transmission shifts, I can still smoke you with my "slow" manual.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

that's the same anti-progress nonsense that keeps the manual transmission alive in this hobby.

it's anti change simply because it's change. Ignoring the benefits and clinging onto whatever negative that can be found no matter how insignificant.

You're missing my point. I'm not ignoring any benefits of an EV here. What I am saying is that for me the benefits of EV don't outweigh the drawbacks. More to the point as far as I'm concerned, a SUV/CUV is all drawback with no redeeming quality, and making it fast doesn't much change that.

there's always some set of people resisting something better for little to no good reason.

Perhaps any definition of "better" should be up to each individual to determine for himself. A CUV would not be better for me, no matter how many people think it should be, and an EV would not be more fun for me to drive no matter for how many other people it might be. "More masculine than other CUVs"? Gimme a break; as a not-a-truck/SUV/offroad guy why would I even want to present that kind of image?

I know I've read that people at Ford have gotten more enthusiastic when working on anything with the name 'Mustang' associated with it. But at this point as far as the Mach E is concerned, that's strictly a matter of the Mustang's heritage having coattails worth trying to ride on.



Norm

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I also wouldn't count out hydrogen powered vehicles. Since Honda is banking on them, I'm more inclined to think every Karen will be in a hydrogen powered car in the future, instead of electric.

I pretty much spent a course in university to learn how much fuel cells suck as of now. In a typical PEM cell used in cars, water management is a big pain in the rear, especially in humid places where air can't really pull much water out of the cell. Then you get into the infrastructure, manufacturing and storage of hydrogen. Oh boy...

Long story short, I agree that it won't be viable for a long time unless there is a significant game changer in how we produce hydrogen. Right now, it's either electrolysis(so basically an electric car but less efficient due to all the processes involved with manufacturing, storage and transportation) or steam reforming(which uses natural gas, and "fossil fuel bad").

Japanese manufacturers are all banking on this tech. I hope they know what they are doing.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Battery manufacturing and disposal is also quite toxic to the environment. It is only swapping one polluting sin for another. It makes people feel better as they believe the hype that battery powered cars are "clean". Well, yes, the car itself does not pollute, but a battery manufacturing plant does terrible things to the planet.
As for disposal of spent batteries, well that is a steaming pile of planet poison, I suppose we could just jettison them all into to space.....

Nothing "clean" about electric cars at all.....

Instead of polluting the air, will be polluting the soil as the battery landfills and concrete containers begin to erode and seep over time.

[CamaroRSOnt]

No hype from Elon! Just last week the German Courts ruled he must quit advertising "Autopilot" as it is fraudulent to pretend it is an autopilot. Many deaths due to this software. Teslas have been driving into trucks, other cars, cement barricades even a fire truck and two police cars over the last couple of years while on autopilot. Two of those drivers were decapitated.


Just in 2018 Elon told the world that there would be 1 million robo-taxi's on the road by 2020. In fact your car with just a software upgrade will become a robo taxi. That would make a depreciating asset an appreciating asset, your car would automatically become more valuable he said, use it to make money when you don't need it as a taxi.



Experts Call Elon Musk's Level 5 Autonomy Claims Absurd

Jul 20, 2020 by Jay Traugott Technology


It's not coming soon, if ever.


Tesla CEO Elon Musk has a history of making bold claims that seem far-fetched. His latest? That Tesla was very close to accomplishing Level 5 autonomy, where vehicles require no human intervention. Needless to say, a few eyebrows were raised within the industry.
Automotive News has spoken to several experts and others with industry knowledge and all have the same conclusion regarding Musk's latest claim: it's nonsense. "None of this is on a plane of reality," said Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. "It's an absurd idea at this point in time with the technology available and infrastructure available and complete unwillingness of Tesla to acknowledge its mistakes."


https://carbuzz.com/news/experts-cal...-claims-absurd

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Perhaps any definition of "better" should be up to each individual to determine for himself. A CUV would not be better for me, no matter how many people think it should be, and an EV would not be more fun for me to drive no matter for how many other people it might be. "More masculine than other CUVs"? Gimme a break; as a not-a-truck/SUV/offroad guy why would I even want to present that kind of image?


Norm

Heh a Ford SUV parked right beside my Camaro in the garage, last year it was a C7 parked there. Nothing wrong with having both. I do know a couple of people who tried EV's, both bought them because they were highly subsidized and new, so why not. Both went back to IC cars didn't like the inconvenience and range anxiety. Where I live we voted in a new gov't and they quit subsidizing EV sales two years ago, sales have dropped 80% since.