[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by USAFJeeper

Whats the difference? Both are privately owned companies that affect people beyond their own business. Each has suppliers, advertising costs and so on. Why not bail out Bob the Turf Man too? There are a lot more Bobs out there.

They're not privately owned actually...see: stockholders. CHRYSLER is privately owned...GM is the direct opposite. And Bob the Turf man, unfortunately...doesn't have the ability to sink the country to a heartbeat away from a full-blown depression. Would that be nice.

Originally Posted by RCowan

Of course that is what GM wants, but what's being proposed is something that will screw them & enthusiasts:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122660438304425269.html
"Democrats have said the legislation would include stiff conditions such as limits on executive compensation and standards for the development of fuel-efficient vehicles."

This is nothing new. The last 25billion that was approved in the CAFE bill? It was tailored for use in re-tooling plants and development for fuel-efficient vehicles. Their intent is to help make 'green' cars that people want now easier to make so they can make a profit off of them as opposed to SUVs.

Originally Posted by Zabo

$40K for a car that honestly does little to no better than the failure that the Prius has become won't help them as much as the Camaro could.

As great as the Camaro is...that statement couldn't be further from the truth. 100mpg rating sound nice to you? What about an outstanding-quality (inside and out) $35-40k, 100 to infinity mpg car with a $7500 government incentive tacked onto it?

The Volt will be expensive, no doubt...but it is everything the Prius CAN'T do. Big PR win, in addition to a CAFE annihilating car. The Camaro is impressive, and has a tremendous 'wow' factor in any form, but it doesn't have the same ability to improve GM's standing like the Volt does.

Originally Posted by Zabo

IMO, [GM] SHOULD go bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Zabo

IMO, [the USA] SHOULD go bankrupt.

That connection is as real as the fingers you typed the original with. DON'T discount the effect GM has on this country for good or bad.

Originally Posted by Zabo

2) Give them an excuse to force the executives to actually take a step back and see what limbs they need to hack off to save the rest of the ill body. If they refuse, they forfeit their jobs. IF they are doing this now, then disregard 2. Keep up the good work then.
Consider it disregarded, and praise noted...They've sold off nearly everything they dare...and they've layed off/retired more people than one might want to see happen...they are hacking away....

3) Chpt. 11 isn't necessarily a bad thing as many people think. What the nation really needs is an education lesson on what Chapter 11 bankruptcies do to companies. Look at United and how it sprang back from the crapper after '02.

"As of July 31, 2006, United is the world's second largest airline by revenue-passenger-miles (behind American Airlines), third-largest by total operating revenues (behind Air France-KLM and American Airlines), and fourth-largest by total passengers transported (behind American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Southwest Airlines). United has 56,000 employees and operates 433 aircraft.

On February 1, 2006, United emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection under which it had operated since December 9, 2002, the largest and longest airline bankruptcy case in the history of the industry."

Chapter 11 works people, Chapter 11 works.
These are two ENTIRELY different industries. The Airlines ferry people around for a few hundred bucks a pop: very LITTLE long-term investment. (you don't buy 5 years worth of plane tickets, for instance)...they're big ferries that aren't likely to drop out of the sky upon announcement of bankruptcy.

Whereas GM/Ford/Chrysler SELLS the ferries for $20,000-$30,000!!! A HUGE long-term investment. And these ferries are little guys that are EXPECTED to break down as it is the nature of the beast. And people will want to cover these breakdowns under a warranty. But if the company supplying the warranty goes bankrupt...and that gets plastered all over the news...how many people will actually buy from them as opposed to Company 'T' over there, who's comparatively doing fine? Now...how the hell are the big three supposed to "turn around" if even less people than now are buying their stuff? They can't!!! Instant death, guaranteed.

Chapter 11 works...yes, or else it wouldn't be there...but Chapter 11 DOESN'T work for GM...and this airline comparison (thrown around a lot lately, is a very poor example)

4) Axe half of the stateside brands that are just redundant (Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, US Buick, GMC as a noncommercial entity). Chevrolet (No SUVs or Silverados), Cadilliac(No SUVs), and GMC(Exclusively Commercial Vehicles - SUVs go here!) would be their bread and butter units in the United States. The plants left over could be used as future production facilities for more advanced 'green' vehicles, retaining the jobs there. Others could be retooled into research plants outside of Detroit as 'Field Research/Marketing Centers' Where people could have a more active role in designing cars in the corporeal that they'd like to see in the future rather than participating online.
Nice idea...but...Pontiac and the others you mentioned probably provides GM with roughly 20% of their income...the results of stripping that away would be interesting. I'd say "catastrophic", but that would be considered over-reacting. When GM got rid of oldsmobile...guess how many buyers gravitated to other GM brands? Almost none...it was a big loss. Lots of money to get rid of the brands, and lots of customers lost.

Over all, I am thinking that like the Aviation Industry is trying to do; the Auto Industry needs to have a civilian oversight board to help them see what the public wants which would MAKE them money rather than them always playing catch-up.
I think their business already revolves around what customers want. Shift to SUVs, build SUVs....shift to cars, build cars

Think about it, if GM actually was ahead of the game more than it could be already, then they'd make a killing being the prophets of the auto industry rather than the likes of other overseas companies.
They already are ahead of the game by many standards. They have the most vehicles with 30mpg +, the most stylish vehicles (by many accounts), and have had nearly every one of their recent entries into the market win some sort of award...how much more ahead (short of flying cars) can they be?

*I am in no way saying Lutz or other executives in GM are bad, just that they may have their priorities crossed saving the company as as a whole this moment. Also, if we had more people like FBod...
See below. (and +1 about Fbod)

--Tidbid: Rick Wagoner was responsible for the ZR1...it was his idea to build a $100,000 Corvette....

Also, cut the Unions loose. Seriously.. this is nation wide too. All Unions in all ends of the American Workforce (Food/Commerical, UAW, Pilots Unions, Mechanics Unions) should be suspended because all it's doing IMO is more harm than good at this point rather than it has in the past. All they've become is a vessel of pride rather than the workers protection that they were designed for from the start.
They still operate under the principles of workers protectiong. What we're seeing some of them do is becoming overzealous, and demanding too much. But can the companies they deal with also be blamed for giving it to them? They're called "negotiations" for a reason, after all.

Secondly, the UAW is almost a non-issue in the problems the big three have right now. I fail to understand why it keeps getting brought up.

Originally Posted by bobscogin

If not on Lutz, then allow me to comment on one of those "other" executives. GM stock has fallen in value by 95% under Rick Wagoner's near decade of "leadership". It would be quite a stretch to call that anything other than bad. I find it hard to believe that he could , or should, remain as CEO under any type of government assistance or bankruptcy.

An interesting note...Wagoner was responsible for getting GM into China, and the other parts of the world...in short, it was Wagoner's idea that has kept GM relatively healthy 'till know...think of it as a captain steering a sinking ship in a torrential storm...there's really not much he can do other than attempt to beach it in time...

No...perhaps he isn't the 'best'...but it certainly wasn't his fault that GM is where it is. There are many factors. 90% of which I can't imagine, and 10% of which would take me a day and a half to write out.....

Originally Posted by detroitboy

Its not that the feds are saying "no" to helping them....they are saying "cut out your executive bonus programs and straighten out your inhouse financial waste before you come to us for help".
Lutz and Wagoner took substantial pay-cuts in 2006-2007. Now...still making nearly a million bucks could be considered distasteful in light of the current situation...but I ask you; how much is a few million between all the execs gonna do to hold back a BILLION dollar-a-month wound? In house waste is being addressed through consolidation of brands into a single managerial structure. For example; Ponitac, Buick, and GMC are all under one roof, both at dealers and in management.

Its also very interesting to hear how many allegations are being made of GM ignoring the needs here in the US while they are spending so much money in Europe. Something about the equivilent of the GM Tech Center being built in Russia????? Take the ball and run guys...I'm just passing on the information we get here from the locals.

Ignoring...might be the improper term to use. GM stands for "General Motors" everywhere you go...yes, but there are different branches of the company: GM Europe, and GM China, etc...they make regional decisions (like spending, etc) because they have their own income, and brands, etc. They're **almost** separate companies. If GM North America died it would have an astounding ripple effect throughout the country, and then the world. But theoretically...I believe (for example) GM Europe could survive without the head here in the US; that's how separate they are.