Electric Vehicles

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

All of that is true. But whose job is it to fix it? OEMs are not going to take on the challenge. They will watch their “back door” to make certain nobody is slipping in with low cost but compliant product. At this point, there are no takers. Not even the Chinese. To paraphrase an old saying, “low cost, compliant, quality…pick two”. That’s why I find Chevy Trax and Buick Envista to be remarkable products. They almost have all three lined up. They start at $22k and $24k respectively and have a decent amount of tech and content at that price. They are not “Spark-level” econoboxes. Think of them as the replacements for Chevy Cruze and Buick Verano. Ford and Chevy will get to positions where their EV offerings will see pricing in the low $30ks, but not any lower than that. But still, keep in mind that for the past couple of years, average vehicle transaction price is closer to $50k than it is to $40k.

Yeah numbers don't lie....
And why is that? Because you can't buy a cheaper EV. So people choose from the price and what is actually available. So this average price looks high. It isn't because all buyers WANT to spend that much. I didn't buy one until the price went way down on a small SUV that fit my needs.
If the Equinox was priced low I was very interested but it doesn't exist and doubt it ever will and be competitive. With the GM and Ford costs to produce things plus dealers rip offs I don't think they'll ever compete in lower priced products as long as other options exist like Tesla. I would bet a sizeable wager that GMs $25k BEV won't come close to the same proposed Tesla at that price. Just won't happen I'd bet on it.
For example I'll reference how old I am in trying to buy a Fiero. It was so innovative and looked amazing on paper. I went to the dealers and they insisted on bending you over to buy one! The Dealership model without MSRP rules is the final point of failure! I couldn't see getting ripped off so waited until it was reasonable priced in the used market. After getting one I was underwhelmed by how uncomfortable it was. No storage space. And worst that Iron Duke 4cyl gave both bad hp and mpg for it's output! The CEL couldn't be solved by the dealer replacing parts many times until I sold it.
When the Fiero had poor sales and was discontinued I knew very well why. No news articles said the actual reasons. They do mention how the car itself improved with the V6 but that didn't solve the dealership problems and by then the people wanting it had already been turned off and bought a different car.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Now I should expect some similar experience with a low cost BEV from GM to be different. Ok I'm holding my breath now.
Edit: how I think dealership rip offs could be more limited by Ford GM Stillantis is to offer an online purchase as Tesla does, with delivery to a location. The dealership could facilitate the final papers and transfer and get only half the profit the MSRP sale would give them, the other half just stays with GM. This would give them some incentive to process the vehicle but even more incentive to just sell at MSRP so they could double their profit or the buyer could just go online for MSRP purchase. Everyone is online and this wouldn't be anything to do. A walk in customer might still get ripped off if there weren't Rules to not sell over the MSRP but ability to buy online would at least help in this big dealer problem on popular vehicles.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

All of that is true. But whose job is it to fix it? OEMs are not going to take on the challenge. They will watch their “back door” to make certain nobody is slipping in with low cost but compliant product. At this point, there are no takers. Not even the Chinese. To paraphrase an old saying, “low cost, compliant, quality…pick two”. That’s why I find Chevy Trax and Buick Envista to be remarkable products. They almost have all three lined up. They start at $22k and $24k respectively and have a decent amount of tech and content at that price. They are not “Spark-level” econoboxes. Think of them as the replacements for Chevy Cruze and Buick Verano. Ford and Chevy will get to positions where their EV offerings will see pricing in the low $30ks, but not any lower than that. But still, keep in mind that for the past couple of years, average vehicle transaction price is closer to $50k than it is to $40k.

Ultimately it's up to the citizenry to break up the regulatory regime cycle. Compliant is killing the other two; it's not unusual to hear the opposite from government mouthpieces, or lobbying groups even Auto corporate groups.

The personal vehicle fleet is old from people pushed out of the lower market. Some part of that were misteps with last gen products. You're right about Trax and Envista, they aren't econoboxes. How many value products can be fit in a company portfolio anymore?

[genxer]

Originally Posted by silversleeper

Yeah numbers don't lie....
With the GM and Ford costs to produce things plus dealers rip offs I don't think they'll ever compete in lower priced products as long as other options exist like Tesla. I would bet a sizeable wager that GMs $25k BEV won't come close to the same proposed Tesla at that price. Just won't happen I'd bet on it.
For example I'll reference how old I am in trying to buy a Fiero.

I inferred that $25k is a moving target and $30k is the real number. Model 3 looks pretty bare, will Tesla people accept a lower level of hardware? He's right about a successful cheap EV not yet being attempted here.

You should have got a 2.8 '88. They did something to improve the rear suspension geometry. Plastic bodies made them heavy for what they were supposed to be. (it also made 4th gens lose the 3rd gen plot on getting more lean). Funny thing is the Duke got sorted out, and is the most successful 4 cylinder in the country's history, from being simple cheap and durable (postal delivery for decades).

[Martinjlm]

Since we’re talking Fiero here, I’ll tell my Fiero stories then I’ll bring it back on topic.

I ordered and took delivery of a 1984 Fiero. That was the launch year. Loved that little car. So much so that I ordered a 1985 Fiero GT. Black and silver, 4 speed manual. First and only time I refused delivery on a car I ordered. The transmission was a piece of crap. On the test drive I needed two hands to get it in reverse. The dealer was actually happy I refused it. Since I had ordered it on the GM Employee plan, he wouldn’t have really made a lot of money on it. He was able to mark it up and sell it for a couple thousand dollars profit. My best friend had ordered one too and he also refused delivery for the same reason.

A while later I went to a Buick dealer and traded my ‘84Fiero in for a 1985 Skyhawk T-Type and got a few hundred dollars back.

Back on topic. When you say a Model 3 is pretty bare I ask “compared to what?” There is a lot of content in the $38,990 base Model 3 and $44,990 base Model Y.

• Panoramic glass roof
• Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Keeping
• Auto High Beams and LED headlamps and tail lamps.
• Integrated front and rear dashcams (with SD card storage of “events”)
• LED interior lighting, color customizable (like in my Camaro 2SS)
• Wireless phone charging
• Built in alarm system with link to cell phone for live camera monitoring
• Camera view blind spot monitoring
• Premium Sound system
• Rear seat touchscreen (Model 3; Model Y gets it next year)
• Heated seats, all positions
• Ventilated front seats (Model 3; Model Y gets it next year)
• 18” (Model 3) and 19” (Model Y) aluminum wheels. 20 and 21” optional.

When we bought our Model Y I price compared it to a Chevrolet Blazer RS (ICE, not EV). We weren’t really considering the Blazer, but since our preference would have been a Blazer EV SS if it was available I did the comparison just because.

To get the Blazer RS with comparable content to our Model Y, the Blazer RS priced out at $52,820. The Tesla Model Y cost us $52,790. That’s before the IRA incentive and not including the fact that we don’t pay for gas. Of course I would’ve gotten a GM Discount on the Blazer, though not on the Blazer EV.

When we bought our car the only options we needed to add were color, wheel upgrade, and tow package. For the Blazer RS everything I listed above except the wheels and maybe the interior light package would have to be added to the base price. A lot of it (integrated dashcams, camera view blind spot monitoring, cell phone access to exterior and interior cameras) is simply not available for Blazer.

[genxer]

My reference point is the pre-refresh G70, and how nicely crafted its' interior is. I could see Tesla's lead being reeled back by upscale brands. Seems to be a fairly common view.

When the Tesla CEO talked about being worried about Chinese makes, it looked like a sign that competition generally from below can box them into a niche. Some of that is because of strong Chinese LFP battery makers for now. But from the overall side of trying to rationalize bean-counting, the Trax's level of features is a gateway to volume opportunity. That ought to leave out private robotaxi hopes. It'll be more like "If you can find a better k-car...".

[yodaslim]

I ain't got the balls to keep an EV out of warranty

[chevy pilot]

Fisker cuts $24,000 off the price of its Ocean SUV in an attempt to stay alive.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by chevy pilot

Fisker cuts $24,000 off the price of its Ocean SUV in an attempt to stay alive.

Or vacuum out the coffin before they lie down in it. Sad, because the Ocean, as specced, is a really nice vehicle. But when you put examples in the hands of reviewers and basic systems randomly fail it’s not a good look.

[RLHMARINES]

The Cadillac Lyriq EV takes the U.S. luxury EV sales lead for the first quarter of 2024. I like the size of the Cadillac Lyriq but I prefer the rear end design of the larger 3 row Cadillac Vistiq with its more chiseled looks.

[silversleeper]

And you always hear the tired cliche of EVs are only for the rich


Who can't afford a new car at $239 a month and save up to $hundreds on gas depending on prices where you live and how much you drive. No maintenance or warranty repair expenses either.



https://www.carsdirect.com/deals-art...is-crazy-cheap

[RLHMARINES]

The first drives for the Silverado RST EV’s are being held and the guy’s over at Jerry Rig Everything was able to get more than the advertised est. mpge of 440 miles of range in a real world trip from Las Vegas. The retail price was also just lowered to about $96k fully loaded from the earlier price of about $106k, a total of over $10k for the RST debut model.

[chevy pilot]

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

The first drives for the Silverado RST EV

460

[genxer]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Or vacuum out the coffin before they lie down in it. Sad, because the Ocean, as specced, is a really nice vehicle. But when you put examples in the hands of reviewers and basic systems randomly fail it’s not a good look.

If figured I'd ask your opinion of Sodium-ion cells, after coming across this article: https://www.motor1.com/features/7133...mpacto-type-r/
"Well, sodium-ion is mostly cheap. Another thing I didn’t mention is that it has a good cycle life... The sodium cells can do more like 3,000 cycles before that degradation occurs. I think a sodium-ion cell with more power density—which I know exists—would be good for hybrid cars or grid storage, where their poor energy density in terms of weight and volume isn’t as important. For hybrids, cycle life and power density are key."
Sodium-ion is also said to have a very wide temperature tolerance.
These would seem to enable a more cost effective hybrid system.
Does any auto OEM currently use them?
GM is reported to be working on adding back hybrids.

[Devstrike]

Since Hybrids were mentioned that would actually work better for me in the future since I live in an apartment complex with no way to charge it. I honestly think non plug in and plug in hybrids are probably the best solution. I heard recently that hybrid sales were on the rise big time. For my Daily Driver as long as I don't have to plug it in I would take it and have the Camaro as a fun car still.