Electric Vehicles

[docwra]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

The results have been a disaster. Even before the recent surge in energy costs, in 2020, Britons were paying about 75 percent more for electricity than Americans; and during the energy crisis in 2022, electricity rates for British businesses were more than double the average paid by US businesses. High and rising energy costs have locked Britain into economic decline. British politicians’ boasts of climate leadership by cutting greenhouse gas emissions faster than any other major economy ignore the unfortunate fact that the British economy has been stagnating since 2008. This luxury net zero policy, which only the rich can afford, has been devastating for ordinary Britons just trying to heat their homes and get to work.

A few points and then I think Im going to leave this alone, the whataboutery here is getting ****ing ridiculous.

1. Yes, we pay more for power than the USA. We have for the entire 45 years Ive been alive, but this war you may have heard about in Ukraine made energy rates go crazy.
We also pay roughly 100% more for gas which means relatively speaking we are actually better off using electricity to power vehicles.

2. Any economic decline is more a consequence of aforementioned war, Brexit (this is going REALLY well), Covid and corrupt/incompetent government - its estimated our government wasted £100bn over the past 4 years. This is not an EV or even a net zero issue.

3. The countries that provide our outsourced power (interconnectors) also use renewable sources, generally at a greater ratio than we do.

4. The blue part of the breakdown is nuclear and biomass. These are still clean power generation methods. The numbers Ive been quoting are accurate.

5. The above info is all freely available if you actually want to find it.

6. I think every other post Ive made has included the phrase "EVs are not for everyone".
Nowhere, here or anywhere else have I told people they should be driving EVs, Ive just corrected some misconceptions and given some personal experience.

Like Ive done in this post as well. If I post about my Z28s power output or the last laptime I got an Nurburgring I dont get people telling me Im a liar so theres obviously something deeper here, a prejudice if you like.

One final thing: I totally get your point about not wanting to pay for EVs if youre not using them, fair play.
If you accept that cleaner air, improved health and less reliance on fossil fuels are good things is it not the same as how you fund medical research, unemployment benefit or food assistance? Even if you dont have children how much of your tax goes on schools?
You might not benefit directly but these things make the world a nicer place to live in.

[genxer]

Some news to add to EV in California hitting a plateau, I picked a lesser inflammatory version of the first: https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20240104000634
"In the January-November period of 2023, Korea sold a record 254,258 hybrid cars, growing 54.7 percent from a year earlier, while EV sales dipped 7.9 percent to 107,453 units, according to data from the Korea Automobile Manufacturers Association."

https://dailycaller.com/2024/01/31/b...AWMqB0bWw4uINw
"The Biden administration is classifying some of the country’s most elite and exclusive locales as “low-income” areas, making them eligible for electric vehicle (EV) charger subsidy programs."

[genxer]

I see a Malibu as something people pay typical Civic, a size down, prices for. So that makes the auto journalist trick of hyping up costly specification (that just happens to coincide with the regulatory push) a massive disservice.

Even before one gets to which asset you'd want to use to carry what distance for what speed... there's easy to spot low-value price-adders in that quoted Motortrend article: dohc engine for low rpm, picking cell chemistry for power density, rare-earth magnet rotors.

Vehicle choice boils down to a values and value stances. I see a lot of the 'anti' types on the site as being correctly against machine prejudice. I don't want to see trucks programmed to be stuck on the roadside because a def heater crapped out - the vehicle pollution war needs to be over.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by genxer

"The Biden administration is classifying some of the country’s most elite and exclusive locales as “low-income” areas, making them eligible for electric vehicle (EV) charger subsidy programs."

Oh how I wish we could comment on this

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Political posts can get you time in the penalty box.

[Capricio]

Just a couple of updates on how things are going in EV-world...


http://https://www.team-bhp.com/news...p-50-19-months


https://jalopnik.com/why-tesla-cyber...-of-1851257091


https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/tesla...e-calculation/

[MyNameIs]

https://www.wsj.com/finance/commodit...-bust-5630493c

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MyNameIs

https://www.wsj.com/finance/commodit...-bust-5630493c

Yup. Huge bust. So far there were only 106,803 EVs sold in January. Highest month of sales so far. And typically, January is the slowest sales month in the auto industry. At 107k sales per month there would be about 1.3M sold in 2024. Not that much more than the 1.2M sold in 2023. But since later months are expected to show stronger sales than January, projections are for another record year falling somewhere between 1.5 - 2 million EVs sold in the US.

January 2022: just over 40,000 EVs sold. Full year 2022 was 809,700
January 2023: just under 80,000 EVs sold. Full year 2023 was 1.2M
January 2024: 106,803 EVs sold. Full year is projected to be just under 2 million.

For those willing to let facts get in the way of a good story, here's some actual sales data.

The chart below is included in the linked article. I just placed the red dot to show where January 2024 EV sales would show on the chart.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/13...h-of-the-year/


What is slowing down is the RATE of sales growth, not actual sales. Sales continue to grow, just at a slower rate.

[Martinjlm]

Just for giggles, here's how the sales break out by brand for January 2024:

1. Tesla: 61,631
2. Ford: 7,510
3. Rivian: 4178
4. Chevrolet: 4,143
5. Hyundai: 3,904
6. BMW: 3,762
7. Mercedes: 3,639
8. Volkswagen: 3,012
9. Kia: 2,316
10. Audi: 2,219
11. Nissan: 1,821
12. Toyota: 1,169
13. Cadillac: 1,056
14. Subaru: 887
15. Lexus: 880
16. Fisker: 855
17. Polestar: 745
18. Porsche: 575
19. Volvo: 484
20. Genesis: 419
21. Lucid: 384
22. GMC: 379
23. BrightDrop: 293
24. Canoo: 267
25. Cruise: 87
26. Jaguar: 77
27. VinFast: 70
28. Rolls Royce: 40
29. Zoox: 1

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Of course when the base you're starting from is super low, like EV sales are, it's easy to record high 'growth'.

Hey, our sales doubled!

Really?

Yeah, last year we sold 2 and this year we sold 4! I guess everyone loves our stuff.

Finally something we can agree on! Sales doubling year over year from really low numbers isn't a big deal. Until it repeats year after year after year as EV sales have done 2020 - 23. So, now that sales have crested over 1 million units, the sales rate has slowed...because bigger numbers are harder to double. But growth is still double digit. Just 20+% as opposed to 40+%. So, as I said and pointed out with real data, the rate of sales has fallen (haters, this is where you get to jump in) but volume growth is continuing (and this is why you need to relax).

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Dealers are asking not to be shipped EVs. EV assembly lines are laying off shifts. CEO's are publicly backing away from their EV commitment deadlines. Consumer reports put out an article stating that EVs have 76% more problems than ICE vehicles. The overall ownership of EVs declined in 2023.

Which is interesting since most EVs aren't sold at dealerships No wonder they want to stop the sales of them. They're not in on it. The line in bold is just a bold faced lie. Bring data or go home. Remember, I have the entire CarFax database at my fingertips. I have access to how many vehicles of whatever type are registered down to a zip code level of accuracy.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Video on hidden costs of EVs.

https://youtu.be/T7fGDw7U2Wg?si=1d8Ios-FL7VTy8x9

Much higher insurance.

Mostly true, but not my personal experience. My insurance went up commensurate with replacing a 7 year old $40k car with a brand new $50k car. In any event, not enough to offset the savings from not purchasing gas.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Much higher repair cost.

Probably true. I hope to never find out.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Many shops either can’t or won’t work on them.

Definitely true. This was also true of Audis for several years when they switched to aluminum panels. Funny thing though, people tend to learn what is important and profitable. No longer a problem getting body work done on Audis.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Frequent tire replacement

Yet to be seen. The only reason would be vehicle mass. Most full-size trucks weigh a lot more than my Model Y. Don't hear complaints about frequent tire replacement from full-size truck owners. The industry knows how to make long-lasting tires for heavy vehicles. Now, if we're talking Hummers and Cybertrucks and other stupidly heavy vehicles, those are niche and the buyers get what they deserve. Meanwhile, my Camaro goes through tires much faster than our Volt did and I expect that will be the same in comparison to the Model Y. Our second Volt and my Camaro were both bought in 2017. From day of purchase to the day the Volt got totaled I replaced tires on the Camaro twice. I never replaced tires on the Volt. The Volt had a lot more miles on it. Matter of fact, ordering new tires for the Camaro today. And the funny thing here is I actually keep two sets of wheels and tires in rotation for that car. Hopefully switching to Contis will slow my turnover rate.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Stick a fork in it, it's done.

Okay

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by MyNameIs

https://www.wsj.com/finance/commodit...-bust-5630493c

I dont have subs so couldn't see the article. From a quick look seems like they process ore and don't have it worked out to mine from their open pit nearby? Their plan is to ship in raw ore to process? Dang that's got to be expensive all that heavy rock to process down.
Well if the price WAS so high it could be profitable, you see that in mining where it is deep or the deposit has small amounts per ton of rock that has to be processed, like gold, when prices are very high its worth it and low its a money loser. So I did the homework finding a chart of lithium prices, yep as expected, looks like a good idea from a few years back and the rocketing prices that could go sky high. now, not so much. IDK what your point was but thats my two cents.

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Video on hidden costs of EVs.

https://youtu.be/T7fGDw7U2Wg?si=1d8Ios-FL7VTy8x9

Much higher insurance.

Much higher repair cost.

Many shops either can’t or won’t work on them.

Frequent tire replacement

The video is deceptive. Read the comments under it and listen to what's actually said by a real owner. Let's compare rates on a $80k X or $95k X Plaid to a $35k generic Ford and see if the rates are higher. What an stupid NEWS story for anyone with a bit of sense. My favorite line is when he says we talked to several owners and they don't realize how much it's costing them. On camera the guy said he does not have to pay for routine maintenance costs and owns 4 EVs, but he has no idea of costs? Dumb comment to be sure. On insurance, of course a car that costs twice as much to replace costs more to insure. Is it reasonably higher than the generic Ford or Toyota for those reasons, yes but not like the story distorts. Is my ZL1 more than the V6 Camaro to insure? Of course but I did look into that too and not listen to the distorted comments they were fantastically high to insure. Your insurance has a free rate quote tool online see for yourself. Who will drive it and miles makes a huge difference in prices so if you play with the numbers make sure you compare a same base price car and same driver and miles per year.

[Capricio]

Yup, next up: Hydrogen! ...with little or no consideration of how much pollution, net energy expended, environmental impact, or cost it takes to separate it from water molecules at scale. as long as the tailpipe emissions get to zero and we can virtue signal. We'll legislate/regulate/subsidize the market to prosperity, or something.

[shaffe]

Martin do you think Rivian and Lucid have any chance at sticking around? It sure seems like they are just burning money, losing it left and right. I saw Rivian is laying of 10% of it's workforce and the stock is down.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Just for giggles, here's how the sales break out by brand for January 2024:

1. Tesla: 61,631
2. Ford: 7,510
3. Rivian: 4178
4. Chevrolet: 4,143
5. Hyundai: 3,904
6. BMW: 3,762
7. Mercedes: 3,639
8. Volkswagen: 3,012
9. Kia: 2,316
10. Audi: 2,219
11. Nissan: 1,821
12. Toyota: 1,169
13. Cadillac: 1,056
14. Subaru: 887
15. Lexus: 880
16. Fisker: 855
17. Polestar: 745
18. Porsche: 575
19. Volvo: 484
20. Genesis: 419
21. Lucid: 384
22. GMC: 379
23. BrightDrop: 293
24. Canoo: 267
25. Cruise: 87
26. Jaguar: 77
27. VinFast: 70
28. Rolls Royce: 40
29. Zoox: 1

Very good except that Chevrolet once ranked very closely to Ford, and once lead Ford in sales in the past. I still see opportunity in Chevrolet's quest for leadership.