Electric Vehicles

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I just configured one as close as I could get to the content in our Model Y. It prized at $52,610. Our Model Y priced out at $52,790. The Blazer RS (ICE) that I priced fell in at $52,810. The Model Y and the Blazer RS are both AWD while the Equinox EV is FWD..

And that's the rub. I was all set to buy a new Equinox until they didn't show up and price was way over the internet rumored $35k. It doesn't even have the standard features you get on a Corolla or Civic unless maybe the top models.
The Y went from $50k to $48k for taking in stock car, and still had a $3k and 7.5k rebates. $38k for a well proven design with no dealer ripoffs buying the whole thing online not stuck in front of one desk to the other forcing a ripoff on you. Or wait for $52k Equinox and hope for some rebate to offset additional ripoffs the dealer.

racerx youtube guy posted about his new Demon170 engine blowing along with all the massive BS dealers have put him through. A changed engine in a collectors interest car is like having a big accident on its records, devalue. Not to mention now that a few have blown is it really the top dog now? Fastest car in the world except a stock grampa's S Plaid sedan outruns it at far cheaper price in the real world.


This video is a long winded guy about his 4+yr 100k mi experience with a Tesla 3. I'll save you the time he only replaced a $10 seat switch and $400 oil circulation pump for the rear motor/diff in 100k mi plus worn suspension at $1k. He estimated $2k spent on electricity BEV vs $15k in ICE fuel if he had to buy it at UK prices. It had similar depreciation to a similar ICE car. Many comments by people driving up to 188k mi without problems. A few problems mentioned out of hundreds of thousands sold. A very few battery replacements but relative to how many sold and the fact they keep improving the batteries even mid year it's not common now, also how did they treat them? Fully charged and left sitting in hot weather beats them down. IIRC the heat pump has been updated and suspension to eliminate a failure point. Don't know about the power steering pump a few have had problems with. The China made 3Performance battery might be a bad trend like the Demon170 engines. The only thing I learned was tire life can be as good as any other car if you don't beat on it's performance. People getting 47k mi out of them. There were a few trolls in the comments section repeating FUD aka BS.
Edit: Here is some info on 2017-2021 power steering problem solved with OTA software update, Don't know if that resolved it but I don't really see any trends on late model Ys. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars...m-a4893117329/
I might add IDK if I would buy a BEV with intentions of trading it in or selling it within a few years of ownership. Because of dropping BEV retail prices and many peoples fear of them used markets are still more uncertain for many dealers. I never lease but BEVs are getting crazy low lease offers now and I would go that route except I intend to keep mine longer than that.


More of racerx talking about proposed FTC rules to stop the dealer BS. I had one experience where the salesman said the quiet part out loud. What is most important to you, Trade in price, Car price OR interest rate? I said all three. He said NO, ONE! so you can tell your wife and neighbors what a great deal you got because of ONE of those items! Like I'm a moron who doesn't mind being scammed as long as I can tell others a half truth how I did good.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by speedyink1

I like the idea of less things to break (at least on commuter cars where "soul" or "driving character" isn't necessary).

My biggest worry is the battery.

If you do not follow the traditional "Don't discharge below 30%/Don't charge over 80%" at all, how long does the pack last? I'm not talking even talking strictly from a mileage point of view either. The chemicals in the battery degrade over time as well. I can see an EV in 10 years with lowish mileage being ok, I can see a 2 year old EV with high mileage being ok, but what about a 10 y/o car with say 200,000 Miles on the clock?
Battery replacement cost is huge. Not to mention, with a 10's of thousands $ repair, would you want to invest that in an EV with "old" drivetrain technology?

With ICE cars, you can buy a 40 year old car that may only take a few thousand to get running great.

As for sports cars, the gimmick isn't just "pedal go down I go fast", it's also the sound of the motor, the feel of the motor, the connection to it and the transmission and everything.

Not to discredit engineers working on electric vehicles as the work is still impressive, but their inherent simplicity also leaves less room for areas of engagement/excitement.
I can buy an ICE car from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and feel like I am having way more fun, even if it's just a car with 130 HP. Maybe it's a tiny high revving V6, with amazing induction sounds, and a crisp free shifting manual transmission. Maybe it's a 180HP V8 with huge sound, lumpy idle, and again, just super fun to master the transmission.
Will there be people looking back at any EV car and go "yeah, this car has so much character regardless of deficiency A or B"? Is there enough to make it feel "special" like many ICE cars in the past still do to this day?

I get I kind of have "old school" thinking and really like all the moving parts that just sing when you have the right car on the right road. If you're totally ok with just having the push you back in the seat feeling, all my points are basically moot.

I was away from this topic a bit, but thank you for sharing this. This hits home for me. I can remember when I was in college and I would go to the dealer with dad, and I sat in an IROC or MC SS. I remember how good those cars felt at the seat of the pants, and how much I wanted one. Mind you, this was the late 80's where 180 hp was considered good. I would get more excited and I felt better behind the wheel of these two weak 80's cars than I would a 300 hp. front driver or most of "today's" performance cars, with one or two or three exceptions. The end of Camaro, Challenger and Charger signaled the end of affordable performance. Now there's nothing to look forward to, save for the excellent pickup twins. It leaves me sad because I remember a time when cars were one of the main things people got excited about. Now, they have been reduced to mere household utensils, with no thought given to them unless they need repair or replacement. We are witnessing the end of an era, and it leaves me sad.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

That's good info and nice to hear about the Equinox. In another year and a half (or more) the base 35K may be available. That's nice, but hardly what I would call a real bargain.

Made in Mexico in about two years and lets say the price stays at 35K (doubtful, though).

In about two years we may see a BYD plant in Mexico producing EVs for about 20K less.

Maybe the Bolt will be considerably less than the Equinox, but somehow I have my doubts.

The EV market in the US will still be missing out on a truly low-cost EV that the rest of the world enjoys and can afford.

Oh well, I'm done trying to convince anyone that 35K is not a low price bargain. (Hell, I paid less than that for my 2SS Camaro brand new).

EVs have provided no real benefit to the consumer when it comes to MSRP. For all their simplicity over ICE, we are stuck with higher prices.

I'll keep what I have and call it a day. No more contributions to gm work-fare from me.

BYD is selling in Mexico now, but they are not building there. Same with several other Chinese brands. If they do build there, likelihood is that they will build primarily for the Mexican and South American markets. Maybe they eventually import from Mexico to US, maybe not. The vehicles they sell in Mexico are. The Dolphin (358,800 pesos / $21,000) and the Seal (778,800 pesos / $45,000). The Dolphin is similar in size and styling to the Chevrolet Bolt (not EUV). The Seal is a direct competitor to the Model 3.

The $10k EVs that everyone talks about are A segment and B-segment vehicles for the domestic Chinese market only. You can’t even buy an A-Segment car in the US anymore. If you could it would be something akin to the Smart car. A B-segment would be something like the Chevrolet Sonic.

[Evergreen6]

Fact is, things are a little craftier than just BYD hoping to dump cheap cars here.

GM already sells vehicles in the US which were built in China. And I hate them for it, it's absolute betrayal.

Ford is following suit. Lincoln Nautilus? Hot off the container ship.

Volvo, after its partnership with Geely in the Polestar venture, will now manufacture its own EV's in China and import them to the US.

Cheap EV's already have an inroad. Were it not for tax incentives to source and manufacture in North America (Thank you, Biden), you know GM would be leveraging its Chinese EV manufacturing--which is already in place--to bring us cheap EV's....would they not?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Fact is, things are a little craftier than just BYD hoping to dump cheap cars here.

GM already sells vehicles in the US which were built in China. And I hate them for it, it's absolute betrayal.

Ford is following suit. Lincoln Nautilus? Hot off the container ship.

Volvo, after its partnership with Geely in the Polestar venture, will now manufacture its own EV's in China and import them to the US.

Cheap EV's already have an inroad. Were it not for tax incentives to source and manufacture in North America (Thank you, Biden), you know GM would be leveraging its Chinese EV manufacturing--which is already in place--to bring us cheap EV's....would they not?

Not likely. The GM and Ford deals are more nuanced than would be evident. Importing vehicles from China to US triggers a 25% tariff unless a similar volume / value of vehicles is imported into China. Basically, each country has stiff tariffs for vehicles imported from the other. They basically agree to balance out on a vehicle for vehicle basis for pre-negotiated situations. So for every Buick Envision imported into the US, GM gets to export a Corvette or Escalade into China rather than be forced to produce it there. Similar situation with Lincoln Nautilus.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not likely. The GM and Ford deals are more nuanced than would be evident. Importing vehicles from China to US triggers a 25% tariff unless a similar volume / value of vehicles is imported into China. Basically, each country has stiff tariffs for vehicles imported from the other. They basically agree to balance out on a vehicle for vehicle basis for pre-negotiated situations. So for every Buick Envision imported into the US, GM gets to export a Corvette or Escalade into China rather than be forced to produce it there. Similar situation with Lincoln Nautilus.

Do you think GM is facing issues with consumer sentiment and importing vehicles from China?

The more-nuanced-than-evident piece is GM could theoretically import 5 cheap EV's from China for one Z06 exported, in theory, yes?

This is the inroad I'm talking about even with existing tariffs.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Do you think GM is facing issues with consumer sentiment and importing vehicles from China?

The more-nuanced-than-evident piece is GM could theoretically import 5 cheap EV's from China for one Z06 exported, in theory, yes?

This is the inroad I'm talking about even with existing tariffs.

I sincerely doubt it. When I was at GM we did studies that showed most people don’t even know how many cylinders their engine has or even more so how many gears their transmission has. They sure as heck don’t know / don’t care where their vehicle is built. There’s always going to be some who do. People in this forum for instance. But the vast majority do not.

Even if GM did make a “5 cheap EVs for 1 Z06” deal you’re still talking not enough numbers to cause a ripple in the pond. And such a deal would be very unlikely. It’s an if stacked on top of an if, wrapped around a maybe.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

BYD is selling in Mexico now, but they are not building there. Same with several other Chinese brands. If they do build there, likelihood is that they will build primarily for the Mexican and South American markets. Maybe they eventually import from Mexico to US, maybe not. The vehicles they sell in Mexico are. The Dolphin (358,800 pesos / $21,000) and the Seal (778,800 pesos / $45,000). The Dolphin is similar in size and styling to the Chevrolet Bolt (not EUV). The Seal is a direct competitor to the Model 3.

The $10k EVs that everyone talks about are A segment and B-segment vehicles for the domestic Chinese market only. You can’t even buy an A-Segment car in the US anymore. If you could it would be something akin to the Smart car. A B-segment would be something like the Chevrolet Sonic.

Just checked…the BYD Dolphin Mini that sells in Mexico for $21,000 is the same BYD that sells in China for under $10,000. It’s also 30,000 Euro in Europe and 25,800 pounds in the UK. Maybe subsidizing local price through price of exports? So dreams of paying $10k for a Chinese import in the US? Not happening.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I sincerely doubt it. When I was at GM we did studies that showed most people don’t even know how many cylinders their engine has or even more so how many gears their transmission has. They sure as heck don’t know / don’t care where their vehicle is built. There’s always going to be some who do. People in this forum for instance. But the vast majority do not.

Even if GM did make a “5 cheap EVs for 1 Z06” deal you’re still talking not enough numbers to cause a ripple in the pond. And such a deal would be very unlikely. It’s an if stacked on top of an if, wrapped around a maybe.

Maybe the Z06 is a bad example. Use full-size pickups, Tahoes, Suburbans, instead. I have no idea the volume that may be exported.

The other obvious inroad is setting up shop in Mexico and suddenly every Chinese EV's VIN now begins with 3 instead of L.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Maybe the Z06 is a bad example. Use full-size pickups, Tahoes, Suburbans, instead. I have no idea the volume that may be exported.

The other obvious inroad is setting up shop in Mexico and suddenly every Chinese EV's VIN now begins with 3 instead of L.

That is something I have my team studying intently. So far the Chinese OEMs are content with importing into Mexico. Not saying it can’t or won’t happen, but at present, not a lot in motion.