[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You sound mad as ufck, lol!! If they aren't even natural competitors, then why are you soo up in arms and getting upset and challenging everything everyone says? Natural competitors or not, the test was pitting Ford's best against Chevy's best and the ZL1 beat the snot outta the GT350R in every performance category. If it were the other way around you'd be here talking trash instead of being mad that everyone is calling out Ford for losing. The GT500 you keep talking about is MIA and nobody knows when or even IF it'll be out. As of right now at best all you can hope for is that it comes out in 2019. And like I said, the Z28 might be out by then...as if we really need it. And if the GT500 comes out, you won't have it selling side by side with the GT350 while we'll have the ZL1, ZL1 1LE, AND the Z28. Against what? The GT500 and the GT? Thats a laugh.

Dude, I'm not mad at all....just enjoying this conversation.

As for the ZL1 beating the "snot" out of the GT350R....I'd hardly call 4 10th's of a second beating the "snot". It was closer than most people thought....so much so that many in here were trying to make up excuses why (which is what brought me in here in the first place).

I agree, the GT500 is totally MIA and may never come out. As of right now, so is the Z28 though. If the GT500 comes out, you can bet your ass it won't be the track debacle that the last one was. Whose to say they don't also release a GT500R? There is also speculation of a MACH I. Ford release far more specialty cars for the mustang than GM for the Camaro...but they always have.

With that said, all of these cars don't always have to lineup. It is just natural however to pit Fords forced induction against Chevy's and NA against NA. Until ford comes out with the GT500 and Chevy the Z28...what we have is what we have.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I firmly believe most would drive the ZL1 quicker around a track. I don't think it would be as fun as ripping around in the GT350 screaming at 8000RPM, but it would likely be quicker for most armatures.

I agree with you here. Of course fun is subjective and my personal experience is I have fun when I blow by everyone on the straights. More power helps make that a lot easier.... hence my propensity to add turbos to an otherwise great handling car.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So in one sentence, the ZL1 "was designed and tuned for the track"...and then in the very next sentence, the ZL1 and GT350R (which is a track car) "aren't even true competitors"?? LOL. Face it dude, you're fighting a losing battle. And your argument about being underpowered has no leg to stand on. The GTR has been underpowered for years and still kicks everyone's ass in just about every category. The GT350R is designed for the track. And it can't even beat the ZL1 which, according to you, is designed for the track but not a true competitor. You're taking this loss very hard man.



Funny how the Dodge will beat the GT but it can hang with the SS. What can the GT actually beat? Oh, the R/T...



Stop preaching about that flat plane crank nonsense man. There are plenty of engines that were special in their time. Did they get recognized for that? Hey when was the last time a Viper won a comparo based on the fact that it has an 8.4 V10? Tell you what, that engine is a heck of a lot more impressive and "special" than that BS you're praising.

And he meant the best OHV in GM pal...get it right.

How are you not getting it. The GT500 and the ZL1 are direct competitors. Last go around, the ZL1 kicked the GT500's tail. There is not GT500 yet, so the best we can do is pit the supercharged ZL1 against the GT350R. They are both designed for the track, but that doesn't mean they are natural competition. The fact that the GT350R is able to keep up with the ZL1 speaks volumes on how special that GT350R is.

I'm actually not taking the loss personally, you are (the GT350R did win the head to head after-all). You are spouting out how "unspecial" the GT350R is and that it has the "worst flat plane crank". It's as if you have to start making up reasons to justify your disdain for the GT350R in an attempt to make the Camaro look better.

Why don't you go back and re-read all of my posts. With the except of visibility issues, try to find all of the negative things I say against the ZL1 and get back with me. What you will find will reveal exactly who's taking this loss in stride, and who is taking it poorly.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I agree with you here. Of course fun is subjective and my personal experience is I have fun when I blow by everyone on the straights. More power helps make that a lot easier.... hence my propensity to add turbos to an otherwise great handling car.

For sure! I know guys who use ultralight fishing rods exclusively because they have more fun. I personally gave up ultra-fast cars for reliable daily drivers. My car is fast enough for me, and plenty fun. Hell, an S2000 is a damn fun car. ..it screams in the higher RPMs and makes you drive it like you stole it.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Really you praising the Voodoo engine is getting a little dreamy. Compared to your traditional 6000-7000 RPM small block that most muscle cars have, yes it's different or "special"...But for a flat plane crank, it is far from it. All the european flat planes from Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren rev to at least 9,000...And quite a few are even higher. 8200 RPM with all the power from 5500 up is not impressive. Why don't you go look up the 458 engine's dyno numbers and see how they were able to make power in a much more special way and still rev to 9000+ RPM. The 458 holds the record for HP per liter in a production car.

Ford in my book, kind of half assed the voodoo with too big of displacement which caused them to make it rev slower (due to the heavier crank and what not) (Now you're back to standard small block revs, you heard them say the LT4 revs/responds faster), plus they couldn't fit the dual intakes like Flat planes should have, and gave it the different length headers which made it not sound like a flat plane at all. So in my book, special for a MUSTANG? Yes, sure, maybe. Special in the world of Flat plane crank engines? Not even close.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

That's just it, the GT350R isn't the followup to the GT500...it's more of a followup to the Boss 302 laguna seca. The fact of the matter is, Ford doesn't currently have a car that matches up with the ZL1 lineup on the S550 chassis....that will be what the GT500 is meant for.

To think that Fords NA V8 can even compete with chevy's FI V8 is a testament to how much ford nailed the GT350R setup.

As of right now, Ford has the NA track king and GM has the FI track king. If you want to pit them against each-other, OK...but let's not pretend they will match up in every facet. The lighter NA car is going to handle better in the corners, and the blistering fast FI car is going to shred it on the straights.



I firmly believe most would drive the ZL1 quicker around a track. I don't think it would be as fun as ripping around in the GT350 screaming at 8000RPM, but it would likely be quicker for most armatures.

Really though this is a bit of a mashup, as the GT350R is a lower compromise track car while the ZL1 is really a jack of all trades. Chevy doesn't produce a Camaro to compete with the GT350R until the ZL1 1LE comes out it sounds like in a few months (at least for testing). They made that clear in the H2H though in comparing the two cars on hand they had more fun in the GT350R however objectively the ZL1 in this case is a vehicle that you can drive every day where as the GT350R isn't.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Really you praising the Voodoo engine is pretty stupid. Compared to your traditional 6000-7000 RPM small block that most muscle cars have, yes it's different or "special"...But for a flat plane crank, it is far from high revving. All the european flat planes from Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini rev to 9,000...And some even higher. 8200 RPM with all the power from 5500 up is not impressive. Why don't you go look up the 458 dyno numbers and see how they were able to make power in a much more special way and still rev to 9000 RPM. Ford in my book, kind of half assed the voodoo with too big of displacement which caused them to make it rev slower (due to the heavier crank and whatnot) (Now you're back to standard small block revs, you heard them say the LT4 revs/responds faster), plus they couldn't fit the dual intakes like Flat planes should have, and gave it the different length headers which made it not sound like a flat plane at all. So in my book, special for a MUSTANG? Yes, sure, maybe. Special in the world of Flat plane crank engines? Not even close.

You're comparing a Ford engine to a Ferrari...compliment 1.
You're comparing a Ford engine to a Porche/Lamborghini...compliment 2.
The voodoo is the largest flat plane V8 produced....and it's done in a working man priced production car. You're bitchcing about the voodoo only making 526 horsepower out of a 5.2l engine when the camaro is only making 455hp out of a 6.2l? Really?

The thing is, even though it doesn't sound the same as a Ferrari...it has it's own marvelous exhaust note. Hell, the motortrend guys love it so much that it likely helped push them over the edge on their vote. The voodoo is unlike any other motor Ford produces. This is the difference between the the mustang and the camaro. All of the camaros use a different variant of the same engine. The uniqueness of the GT350 comes from the voodoo engine.

Originally Posted by doc7000

Really though this is a bit of a mashup, as the GT350R is a lower compromise track car while the ZL1 is really a jack of all trades. Chevy doesn't produce a Camaro to compete with the GT350R until the ZL1 1LE comes out it sounds like in a few months (at least for testing). They made that clear in the H2H though in comparing the two cars on hand they had more fun in the GT350R however objectively the ZL1 in this case is a vehicle that you can drive every day where as the GT350R isn't.

Even the ZL1 1LE isn't the GT350's competiton. Yes it's more of a all out racecar, but hell it's still supercharged pumping out an assload more power. The ZL1 is no more a competitor to the GT350 than is the hellcat....well, maybe it's just slightly more, but you get my drift.

I do agree, ZL1 is more of a jack of all trades...but it should be. It's touting more power, more torque and a more compliant road suspension.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Mustang fanboy should write a book of excuses.

I bet it will be nice when the mustang finally beats the Camaro at something and not need to constantly defend it. make up excuses. throw out what ifs. add mods. future models.

this has got to be exhausting lmao. you ever check your blood pressure?

oh yeah....SALES!!!!!...you got that bro lol

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Mustang fanboy should write a book of excuses.

I bet it will be nice when the mustang finally beats the Camaro at something and not need to constantly defend it. make up excuses. throw out what ifs. add mods. future models.

this has got to be exhausting lmao.

I'm curious, exactly what excuses have I been making? I hear a lot of excuses and bashing from camaro folk. Quite frankly, I believe I have done nothing but credit the ZL1. I've stated my opinion on why I feel the GT350 is special.

But again, this is all fun. I take nothing personally.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

I think it is comical that people put so much weight on track times achieved by professional drivers.

A car that is really hard to drive could put up a blazing lap with Randy Pobst behind the wheel, but be a death machine for normal people.

Just because car A is faster than car B in the hands of a pro doesn't necessarily mean it's the best, or most fun, car.

I've always felt this way myself. That is why I enjoy hearing/reading about the "Lightning Lap". It's more of a "real world" enthusiasts look at the cars.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

As for the ZL1 beating the "snot" out of the GT350R....I'd hardly call 4 10th's of a second beating the "snot". It was closer than most people thought....so much so that many in here were trying to make up excuses why (which is what brought me in here in the first place).

4 tenths is an ass kicking bro. That is a lot of time to make up.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I agree, the GT500 is totally MIA and may never come out. As of right now, so is the Z28 though. If the GT500 comes out, you can bet your ass it won't be the track debacle that the last one was. Whose to say they don't also release a GT500R? There is also speculation of a MACH I. Ford release far more specialty cars for the mustang than GM for the Camaro...but they always have.

With that said, all of these cars don't always have to lineup. It is just natural however to pit Fords forced induction against Chevy's and NA against NA. Until ford comes out with the GT500 and Chevy the Z28...what we have is what we have.

All Ford does is they take a GT, throw a few badges and some other BS on it, do something to free up an extra 5-15 hp, and then call it a "Bullitt". Or they take an older Cobra engine and tweak it a little and call it a "Mach 1" like they did in 03. Or they just throw badges on it and do nothing else like they did with the S197 Mach1 and Bullitt. And their fans clap and say "hooray I paid an extra $10,000 for a re-badged GT thanks Ford". They had the Boss 302 and that was it. Everything else was a gimmick. And at this point Chevy doesn't even need the Z28 considering how well the ZL1 did and that the even better ZL1 1LE is coming out. All the special names in the world ain't gonna help the Mustang at this point.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

How are you not getting it. The GT500 and the ZL1 are direct competitors. Last go around, the ZL1 kicked the GT500's tail. There is not GT500 yet, so the best we can do is pit the supercharged ZL1 against the GT350R. They are both designed for the track, but that doesn't mean they are natural competition. The fact that the GT350R is able to keep up with the ZL1 speaks volumes on how special that GT350R is.

I'm actually not taking the loss personally, you are (the GT350R did win the head to head after-all). You are spouting out how "unspecial" the GT350R is and that it has the "worst flat plane crank". It's as if you have to start making up reasons to justify your disdain for the GT350R in an attempt to make the Camaro look better.

Why don't you go back and re-read all of my posts. With the except of visibility issues, try to find all of the negative things I say against the ZL1 and get back with me. What you will find will reveal exactly who's taking this loss in stride, and who is taking it poorly.

What loss am I taking? The only thing that mattered to me is who beat who on the track. I often disagree with just about the majority of what MT says subjectively anyway. Hey they can make the Mustang the car of the year for the next few decades. I won't care. Show me the results. And there is nothing special about that dang engine that you keep praising. Nothing at all. It is wiped out and completely underpowered and completely underwhelming by today's standards. It is 2017 and the fastest Mustang costs over $60K and runs a 12.2 in the quarter and makes 526hp and 429 tq and you're sitting here calling THAT "special". In 2017? Bro you are out of your mind. 5 years ago that might have been pretty cool. But now that is really weak from a performance car. So exactly what is soo good about the GT350R when it is losing to it's competition in everything?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I'm curious, exactly what excuses have I been making? I hear a lot of excuses and bashing from camaro folk. Quite frankly, I believe I have done nothing but credit the ZL1. I've stated my opinion on why I feel the GT350 is special.

But again, this is all fun. I take nothing personally.

Excuse #1 - "They're not natural competitors"

Excuse #2 - "The ZL1 has 124 more hp and 221 more tq"

Excuse #3 - "The GT500 is gonna come out..."

[KenB925]

i think both cars are cool, the voodoo is awesome and so is the lt4

we need both of these cars and companies competing to improve the breed. These 'pony' cars are legit threats to some serious cars on the track, and it's only because they push each other.

[crossroaddemons]

I didn't buy the car because someone drove it really fast at the ring. I didn't buy it because Al said the car was great. I didn't buy it because some magazine said it was better than some other car. I bought it because I like it. Nobody's opinion matters to me but mine. Period!