2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Power to weight ratio for one. The GT500 has it. You seem to forget the Hellcat is also available with a 6-speed manual. Guess which one will be included in the inevitable GT500/ZL1/Hellcat comparisons?



The difference between the fastest ZL1 auto and manual times are:
M6: 12.075 @ 120.01 MPH
A6: 11.717 @ 117.61 MPH

So while the ET is 3/10 lower, the trap is 3mph lower as well. Per your statement above, even if the ET's are close between the GT500 and Hellcat, the GT500 will take it from a roll every time due to P/W advantage.



You really think the Hellcat will be making 600hp/600lb-ft at the wheels?



Your math is fuzzy. Based on projected weight*:
GT500 manual 3891lbs
ZL1 manual 4118lbs
Hellcat manual* 4300-4400lbs

That's 4.2-6.4% additional weight over the ZL1 and 9.5-11.6% additional weight over the GT500. To have the same power/weight ratio as the GT500, the Hellcat would have to put 660hp/ft-lbs TO THE GROUND which isn't happening.



Agree. I think the concern is that Dodge has had 3 years to top the ZL1 and 2 years to top the GT500 and from the looks of it, it won't beat either in their respective strengths. I just hope it's not like the Viper debut. It was a pretty big failure in not outperforming the 6 yr/old ZR1 and sales of the Viper reflect this.

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Listen in my world I could care less about trap speed. My goal when I race is to be the first car to trip the win light. Let the guy with the big mph make the excuses. Bottom line is I don't see these 13/14 500s putting up really good times without DRs at my local tracks, most all I have seen on factory rubber are in the high 11s to lower 12s, some worse in the 1/4. Truth is I have watched bolt-on automatic 5.0s whip up on them as they did to my cammed Camaro.

I do agree though that the 500 would be very difficult to beat in a roll race.

If you don't think that the Hellcat with the 8-speed automatic is won't be capable of this you really aren't paying attention.

[rocket403]

Here is the Dodge Viper TA at the track

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Listen in my world I could care less about trap speed. My goal when I race is to be the first car to trip the win light. Let the guy with the big mph make the excuses. Bottom line is I don't see these 13/14 500s putting up really good times without DRs at my local tracks, most all I have seen on factory rubber are in the high 11s to lower 12s, some worse in the 1/4. Truth is I have watched bolt-on automatic 5.0s whip up on them as they did to my cammed Camaro.

I do agree though that the 500 would be very difficult to beat in a roll race.

If you don't think that the Hellcat with the 8-speed automatic is won't be capable of this you really aren't paying attention.

On a 1320' strip you're right, ET is all that matters. But there are a million miles of pavement out there not constrained to lights and measures. When the Hellcat rolls up next to a GT500, the Ford is going to walk it every single time unless Dodge finds a way to put 660hp or so to the ground.

On a road course I would be shocked if the Hellcat comes in anything other than third place.

An 8-speed auto is nice and all. Dodge fans have been waiting for this for how many years? Always excuses. Wait until this, wait until that. Must get tiring all that waiting.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Here is the Dodge Viper TA at the track

It took how many tries for Dodge to beat the 6 year old ZR1 around Laguna Seca by a whopping 0.08 seconds? This is exactly why the Viper is stagnating in showrooms.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/ins...mbly-956213200
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/03/2...r-sales-slump/
http://jalopnik.com/is-the-650-hp-co...ers-1588262012

[rocket403]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

When the Hellcat rolls up next to a GT500, the Ford is going to walk it every single time unless Dodge finds a way to put 660hp or so to the ground.

On a road course I would be shocked if the Hellcat comes in anything other than third place.

An 8-speed auto is nice and all. Dodge fans have been waiting for this for how many years? Always excuses. Wait until this, wait until that. Must get tiring all that waiting.

From what I have come across the GT 500 has a problem getting it's power to the pavement live rear axle and not enough tire for the hp.

GM wishes that they had the 8 speed trans, dodge has been moving forward and making changes to the Challenger improving it each year.
here is some things that Dodge has added to the car
8-speed trans
Adaptive Cruise Control
Blind Spot and Cross Path Detection
Forward Collision Warning
Performance Pages screens, advanced (SRT and special model only)
Ventilated front seats
with the updated suspension we will see very soon how that helps the Challenger at the track

The Hellcat is going to be a Monster of a car and with tuning will be able to increase the HP numbers for those people that feel that they need even more than 600-plus that it comes with.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by rocket403

GM wishes that they had the 8 speed trans,

You mean like the one that's been in the CTS since last fall, and will come in the 2015 Corvette?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-6-test-review
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/07/2...eed-automatic/

Originally Posted by rocket403

dodge has been moving forward and making changes to the Challenger improving it each year.

And yet it remains in third place year, after year, after year, after year...

Originally Posted by rocket403

The Hellcat is going to be a Monster of a car and with tuning will be able to increase the HP numbers for those people that feel that they need even more than 600-plus that it comes with.

ALL cars can be tuned. What makes this special? The price? The excessive weight? Will it be faster than the GT500 in a drag race? Will it be faster than a ZL1 around a track?.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

On a 1320' strip you're right, ET is all that matters. But there are a million miles of pavement out there not constrained to lights and measures. When the Hellcat rolls up next to a GT500, the Ford is going to walk it every single time unless Dodge finds a way to put 660hp or so to the ground.

On a road course I would be shocked if the Hellcat comes in anything other than third place.

An 8-speed auto is nice and all. Dodge fans have been waiting for this for how many years? Always excuses. Wait until this, wait until that. Must get tiring all that waiting.

The only problem is the 500 was never marketed to be a roll racing machine, it was produced to rule the drag strip. Which has been the Mustang's focus for as long as I can remember. The Hellcat will more than likely in most head to head encounters now take that title.

[Loading.....]

Originally Posted by rocket403

...dodge has been moving forward and making changes to the Challenger improving it each year.
here is some things that Dodge has added to the car
8-speed trans
Adaptive Cruise Control
Blind Spot and Cross Path Detection
Forward Collision Warning
Performance Pages screens, advanced (SRT and special model only)
Ventilated front seats
with the updated suspension we will see very soon how that helps the Challenger at the track

Very misleading statement. Dodge just added all of what you listed to the 2015 MY Challenger that is not even out yet. How is that improving the Challenger each year? More like improving the Challenger every six years. And alot of what you just listed was already on the 300, Charger, and Jeep three years prior - I guess that is an improvement when you get equipment that has already been in the market for three years.

Originally Posted by rocket403

The Hellcat is going to be a Monster of a car and with tuning will be able to increase the HP numbers for those people that feel that they need even more than 600-plus that it comes with.

Given SRTs latest tuning fiasco, I'd say the PCM will be locked tight and will not be cracked for two years after launch (just like the 392s when they hit the streets).

Don't get me wrong, I want the Challenger to join in the frey, but by looking at the numbers released so far and the three plus years to develop the car to beat the competition - this Hellcat better be the end all be all. If it is short of 662 HP... fail. If it does not beat the ZL1 and GT500 lap times at Laguna Seca... fail. If it does not run lower than 11.6 (with both transmissions)...fail. Anything else is an excuse!

[rocket403]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

And yet it remains in third place year, after year, after year, after year...

As for being in third place in sales and at a road track sure, for the rest it is at or close to the top.

They also have a very high resale value as the Camaro and Mustang don't

I guess the Camaro will need to wait for 2 model years to get that 8 speed trans when they move to the Caddy platform

[crysalis_01]

Dodge could argue that Hellcat doesn't even have to compete with GT500, seeing as it'll be out of production for the '15 MY. Thereby allowing Dodge to take the 1/4 mile "title". Especially if the next venture by SVT is GT350, rumored to be a naturally aspirated road track car producing much less than the current GT500's 662/631.

I'm not saying that the rags and owners out there won't compare them anyway, it's just that on the marketing side of things it seems like that's the smart route for Dodge to take.

Dodge is so late to this game, effectively a half cycle behind, that their max effort now is going to fall short when compared to the next gen ZL1 and GT500 coming down the pipe. However, I suppose that with both of those a few years out, they can have their fun in the sun for a little while, seems only fair.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

The only problem is the 500 was never marketed to be a roll racing machine, it was produced to rule the drag strip. Which has been the Mustang's focus for as long as I can remember. The Hellcat will more than likely in most head to head encounters now take that title.

I understand what you are saying. Manual vs manual I'm not convinced the Hellcat will win. Auto vs manual becomes a question of how good the GT500 driver is. From a roll, standing mile, etc the Hellcat will almost certainly see tail lights.
Ford fanboys will cry foul for comparing an automatic to a manual only car. I suspect the reviews that come out will choose manual only for all three cars, just as they only compared the manual ZL1 to the GT500 in 2013. The Dodge will almost certainly cost more too, which again makes me wonder what's so special about it.

Originally Posted by Loading.....

Don't get me wrong, I want the Challenger to join in the frey, but by looking at the numbers released so far and the three plus years to develop the car to beat the competition - this Hellcat better be the end all be all. If it is short of 662 HP... fail. If it does not beat the ZL1 and GT500 lap times at Laguna Seca... fail. If it does not run lower than 11.6 (with both transmissions)...fail. Anything else is an excuse!

THIS^ If it turns out like the Viper did, this car will go down in history (and sales) as another Dodge flop. Team Viper had 6 whole years to build a car faster than the ZR1 and they finally did...by 0.08 seconds around a 2.2 mile track.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by rocket403

As for being in third place in sales and at a road track sure, for the rest it is at or close to the top.

Auto manufacturers are in business to have the lowest ET? No. They are in business to sell cars. There is one Challenger sold for every two Camaro's and two Mustang's. That's not even the same ballpark.

Originally Posted by rocket403

They also have a very high resale value as the Camaro and Mustang don't

Nope. Guess again.
http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-res...le-sports-car/

How about reliability?



But at least Dodge has the best customer service...oh wait...

[rocket403]

I guess you missed this

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0EO1C620140613

guess GM just recalled all the Camaro's made
JD power may need to revise their numbers
GM has had a bad year hope they are looking up next year.

[Mr Monte]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I guess you missed this

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0EO1C620140613

guess GM just recalled all the Camaro's made
JD power may need to revise their numbers
GM has had a bad year hope they are looking up next year.

This is from the reuter's link,

The problem with the Camaro switch "is an external bumping issue," Adler said. He said it involves "an atypical seating situation. If you sit somewhat normally and don't pull your seat way up, you are not going to have this problem."

The only way I see this being an issue is if the steering wheel is down/out as far as it can go & the seat is up/forward as far as it can go then the driver sits as far forward as they can. The driver would more than likely have to be less than 5ft tall & heavy set.

It seems like the average driving skill is falling rapidly so manufactures need to idiot proof cars as much as possible.


As far as dependability my 1st hand experience confirms the Camaro as the most dependable of the 3 and the Dodge as being the worst & Ford somewhere in the middle. I had the same assessment back in the 70s when I 1st started driving. Dodge makes (made) some really awesome cars but they must of got their electrical training in Britain.