Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Phastek Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2007, 03:37 AM   #15
Rock36
I just like V8s
 
Rock36's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Corvette Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 919
A couple things:

I think the only problem with the GT500 aside from the weight, is the dealer gouging on the car. It is amazing someone would think that 440 rwhp from a SAE rated 500hp for $41K is pathetic. Well $41K is what it is supposed to cost.

A GT500 IS NOT supposed to compete with a Corvette Z06. There is nothing more to say about that. Just because they both have 500hp does not put them in the same market segment.

The GT500 coupe still comes in just a hair under 4000lbs, it is the vert that weighs 4100lbs+. I'm spiliting hairs, but I'm being accurate.

The 1999 Cobra was overrated, but Ford implemented a fix, and it was indeed a black eye for SVT. However, that was the only year the Ford Mustang Cobra had that issue.

The 2003-2004 Mach 1 was rated at 305hp from the factory, but makes around 285 rwhp. So either it has only 6.5% drive train loss or is underrated. I'm guessing it is underrated. Just providing a counter-example to the claim that Fords are overrated.

I'm well aware how underrated the LS1 F-bodies were, but saying a car feels faster that it is rated is pointless. Your butt dyno is no more accurate than mine.

EDIT: I didn't join this site merely to defend Mustangs or anything, but being a guy that is involved with both the Ford and Chevy communities there is a lot of misinformation and skewed perspectives on both sides. I don't want anyone to think I am here being a troll especially since I haven't bashed the Camaro. I just might end up owning a new Camaro, but that doesn't change facts.
__________________
"Anyone know who sells the driver mods?"

2007 Corvette Z06: Le Mans blue, 2LZ

Rock36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 07:55 AM   #16
Casull

 
Casull's Avatar
 
Drives: Chevy Silverado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
A couple things:

I think the only problem with the GT500 aside from the weight, is the dealer gouging on the car. It is amazing someone would think that 440 rwhp from a SAE rated 500hp for $41K is pathetic. Well $41K is what it is supposed to cost.

A GT500 IS NOT supposed to compete with a Corvette Z06. There is nothing more to say about that. Just because they both have 500hp does not put them in the same market segment.

The GT500 coupe still comes in just a hair under 4000lbs, it is the vert that weighs 4100lbs+. I'm spiliting hairs, but I'm being accurate.

The 1999 Cobra was overrated, but Ford implemented a fix, and it was indeed a black eye for SVT. However, that was the only year the Ford Mustang Cobra had that issue.

The 2003-2004 Mach 1 was rated at 305hp from the factory, but makes around 285 rwhp. So either it has only 6.5% drive train loss or is underrated. I'm guessing it is underrated. Just providing a counter-example to the claim that Fords are overrated.

I'm well aware how underrated the LS1 F-bodies were, but saying a car feels faster that it is rated is pointless. Your butt dyno is no more accurate than mine.

EDIT: I didn't join this site merely to defend Mustangs or anything, but being a guy that is involved with both the Ford and Chevy communities there is a lot of misinformation and skewed perspectives on both sides. I don't want anyone to think I am here being a troll especially since I haven't bashed the Camaro. I just might end up owning a new Camaro, but that doesn't change facts.




I had actually started typing a response to the "it feels stronger than it is rated' comments above, but about 1/2 way in I decided to delete the post because I couldn't find a way to say what you said without sounding like a complete jerk. But I have to say I literally laughed out loud when i read that!

I agree BTW.....

As for defending the Mustang... it is all good! It is good to have someone around that can speak intelligently about the Mustang.
Casull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 11:44 AM   #17
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 ZL1 #705
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 26,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
I'm well aware how underrated the LS1 F-bodies were, but saying a car feels faster that it is rated is pointless. Your butt dyno is no more accurate than mine.

EDIT: I didn't join this site merely to defend Mustangs or anything, but being a guy that is involved with both the Ford and Chevy communities there is a lot of misinformation and skewed perspectives on both sides. I don't want anyone to think I am here being a troll especially since I haven't bashed the Camaro. I just might end up owning a new Camaro, but that doesn't change facts.
BUTT DYNO... Funny and true.

You make good points which are valid. Ford has been both under and over rated in their hp claims. I can understand a car co. wanting to under rate their hp in a particular vehicle to assist the buyer in saving a few bucks on their car insurance in order to actually be able to afford owning the car.

But, the practice of over rating a vehicles hp to sell more cars and make the veh more desireable is very poor practice and is a slap in the face to the unsuspecting new owner.

It's obvious you are not a troll and you do bring good points/discussion. Personally, I'm not a Ford guy, but still respect the muscle car that it is. Hopefully you do end up owning a new Camaro!
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 01:43 PM   #18
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,782
Exactly, When the green light drops, the “BULL SHIT” stops…

This world is full of gullible individuals… “It has to be true, I read it on the internet”.
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 06:00 PM   #19
IROC'em
 
IROC'em's Avatar
 
Drives: Chevy 1500 5.7L Vortec
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL, Go gators!
Posts: 172
The Mr GM guy 3whiterag thinks the May issue of Hot Rod magazine is a good indicator of the HP.

Im telling you that means its prolly gonna be almost exactly what the mag says.
IROC'em is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 07:15 PM   #20
Casull

 
Casull's Avatar
 
Drives: Chevy Silverado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by IROC'em View Post
The Mr GM guy 3whiterag thinks the May issue of Hot Rod magazine is a good indicator of the HP.

Im telling you that means its prolly gonna be almost exactly what the mag says.
Problem is that the mg doesn't really give us more than we already knew other than the 550HP s/c version. It says it will have the 6.2 LS3 capable of over 400 hp... which I would hope is true since the LS2 gets 400....
Casull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2007, 01:46 AM   #21
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 ZL1 #705
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 26,558
To answer the threads question....Yes.

If GM claims the Camaro will have X amount of hp, then it's fairly reasonable to assume that the production version will have close to, if not more hp than what they state.
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2007, 08:27 AM   #22
Casull

 
Casull's Avatar
 
Drives: Chevy Silverado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
To answer the threads question....Yes.

If GM claims the Camaro will have X amount of hp, then it's fairly reasonable to assume that the production version will have close to, if not more hp than what they state.
At the very most we will see a pretty typical amount of drivetrain loss but nothing like the Fords previously mentioned. If you look at the C6 and GTO that utilize the LS2, neither of them put down 400 to the wheels. The majority of the vettes put down anywhere from 340-380 to the wheels.
Casull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2007, 09:17 AM   #23
rray200
 
Drives: 2018 Camaro 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casull View Post
At the very most we will see a pretty typical amount of drivetrain loss but nothing like the Fords previously mentioned. If you look at the C6 and GTO that utilize the LS2, neither of them put down 400 to the wheels. The majority of the vettes put down anywhere from 340-380 to the wheels.
So I'm guessing, with the LS3, we'll be looking at a range of about 370-400 HP at the wheels. It would have to be since the LS2s get 340-380 on the dyno. That's going to make for a very scintallating driving experience. I can't wait.
rray200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2007, 10:14 AM   #24
35th02ss

 
35th02ss's Avatar
 
Drives: 02 SS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wallops Island, VA
Posts: 760
I would bet anything that if GM claims 400hp than the car will aleast have that, most likely more.

BTW how many auto mans. are using SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) rated motors. Don't worry I'll wait for the answer.
35th02ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 02:40 PM   #25
MattD
 
Drives: 05 Ford Mustang GT
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by rray200 View Post
Ford is notorious for overrating the horsepower of their cars. They had quite an embarassing scandal back in the late '90s with their Cobra Mustang which claimed to put down 320 HP at the crank, but was dynoing at around 190-200 HP at the wheels. All those cars had to be recalled and fixed and Ford stopped making the Cobra for 2 years before re-introducing it in 2001. Plus, the 2005 Mustang GTs were on average, only dynoing at 245-250 at the wheel, despite a claim of 300 HP at the crank. In '06, they fixed the problem and now they dyno between 265-270 wheel HP, which is correct for a 300 HP car. Drivetrain loss should never be more than 35 HP.

The Shelby GT500s 440 HP at the wheel is pathetic for a 500 HP car, especially one that weighs over 4100 pounds. I mean the Z06 gets 475 HP at the wheel with the LS7.

GM on the other hand generally tends to be very accurate or underrates the power in their performance cars. Certainly the LS1 F-bodies can lay testament to that, with cars rated at 325 HP, but many dynoing 310+ at the wheels, bone stock.

Parasitic loss is based on percentage, and can not be just a number. If I am reading you correctly, then you are saying that if I put an engine in a car that makes 100 hp, then it should dyno between 65-70 to the wheels. And that same car should dyno 465-470 to the wheels if I put a 500hp engine in it.
MattD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 03:01 PM   #26
Rock36
I just like V8s
 
Rock36's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Corvette Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattD View Post

Parasitic loss is based on percentage, and can not be just a number. If I am reading you correctly, then you are saying that if I put an engine in a car that makes 100 hp, then it should dyno between 65-70 to the wheels. And that same car should dyno 465-470 to the wheels if I put a 500hp engine in it.
Yeah I had a few things to say to that guy too. I forgot he claimed the 2005 Mustang GT only made 240-250 rwhp on average.

I've had my S197 Mustang since they came out and have been following the progress of the aftermarket and many many many many many indepedent dyno readings both modded and unmoddified. And stock S197 Mustang GTs (of any year) make 255-265 rwhp consistently stock. Which is right on the money for a 300 bhp rating.

I see you have a 05 Mustang GT too....there are quite a lot of Mustang guys on this site. I think we are all going to "the dark side".
__________________
"Anyone know who sells the driver mods?"

2007 Corvette Z06: Le Mans blue, 2LZ

Rock36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 04:12 PM   #27
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 ZL1 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 31,876
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
That's right, I can feel the Anger inside of you, Release It! You will become stronger...100hp or more stronger...
__________________
"Keep the faith." - Fbodfather
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2007, 05:21 PM   #28
3whiterag
GM Powertrain Retired
 
3whiterag's Avatar
 
Drives: 67SS350, 87 IROC L98, 96SS ver
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35th02ss View Post
I would bet anything that if GM claims 400hp than the car will aleast have that, most likely more.

BTW how many auto mans. are using SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) rated motors. Don't worry I'll wait for the answer.
Funny you should mention that. The domestic automakers have been trying for years to get ALL manufacturers to use SAE criteria for reporting. Imports were notorious for inflating Hp. ratings and Km/L or MPG. Some of them got busted not too long ago. Even their odometers were way out of whack, a lot more than the expected or allowable +/- variable. So, back to the Hp. question.... Yes, I would expect the LS3 to have more Hp. than the LS2, values I have seen are in the correct range. The LS(X) base engine would be well NORTH of that and the top LS(X) will be FAR NORTH of that. That is all I have to say about that! (For now)
3whiterag is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Message to all Fbody Enthusiasts TAG UR IT 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 12 02-02-2013 07:41 PM
Official Camaro Convertible CONCEPT Press Release Tran Camaro Convertible Forum 12 11-18-2009 07:05 PM
Detroit News panel wants GM to build Camaro concept Tran 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 12 03-15-2009 04:38 PM
Camaro to get "green light" this week! Peco 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 57 10-16-2007 12:01 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.