Methanol Question

[ProudLS]

I have a windshield washer liquid from Cyclo that has 98% Methyl alcohol (Methanol) will it work fine to kill detonation and add more octane when spray it after the MAF? Do I need to mix water with this formula?

Will it require a tune? I have been told that it makes the car rich

Thanks,

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by ProudLS

I have a windshield washer liquid from Cyclo that has 98% Methyl alcohol (Methanol) will it work fine to kill detonation and add more octane when spray it after the MAF? Do I need to mix water with this formula?

Will it require a tune? I have been told that it makes the car rich

Thanks,

To take advantage of any Methanol or water methanol, Custom tuning is required.

Usually Only Supercharged cars Respond to Methanol injection due to high charge temps.

Ted.

[ProudLS]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

To take advantage of any Methanol or water methanol, Custom tuning is required.

Usually Only Supercharged cars Respond to Methanol injection due to high charge temps.

Ted.

Well, I have a friend who does not have 93 fuel in his area, so will this work for him?

[DSteck]

If you have a bolt-on, NA setup... you're not really going to gain much if anything from spraying meth. Run a good AFR (12.4-12.5 at WOT) to quench the charge, and you'll be fine.

As stated above, forced induction is where meth is most valuable. It can also be good on high compression nitrous setups.

[ProudLS]

Originally Posted by DSteck

If you have a bolt-on, NA setup... you're not really going to gain much if anything from spraying meth. Run a good AFR (12.4-12.5 at WOT) to quench the charge, and you'll be fine.

As stated above, forced induction is where meth is most valuable. It can also be good on high compression nitrous setups.

You are right but I will still have some gain especially when you fill your car with 91 Octane and live in a hot area :(

[ProudLS]

I found this article and I want to share it with you guys

Why Water Methanol Injection?
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.

In recent years, water methanol injection has become ever more popular and recognized as an invaluable tool for both gasoline and diesel forced induction engines as well as naturally aspirated applications. While often times referred to as a “chemical intercooler” it is more commonly used in forced induction applications due to it’s substantial cooling effects and added octane increase it adds to pump gas. Reducing air intake charge temperatures by 50-200+ degrees F almost instantly. Providing a substantially cooler denser air charge for a greater expansion of power within the combustion chamber. While also largely eliminating the problem of engine “knocking” and allowing user to run higher levels of boost, compression and increased timing.

As mentioned already. Water methanol injection has also become a tried-and-true proven way for users to effectively increase their 87-93 octane pump gas. Depending on the amount injected, gains up to 10-20+ points in octane can be achieved. Thus, making 91 octane pump gas act like 105-116 octane racing fuel in their engines. Thereby eliminating our dependency for notoriously expensive racing fuels, which can cost upwards of $8.00-$12.00 per gallon, as so many of us have reluctantly had to use in the past. Costing only pennies to operate when using 100% water, its also a far more effective, affordable and convenient of a solution to those expensive octane booster fuel additives as well.


What types of fluids can I use?

Water and various grains of alcohol, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol, are the primary fluids which are commonly used in a water alcohol injection systems. Depending on the application, we have found mixtures of 40/60 water and methanol to perform the best without the risk of being a flammable fluid. This surprises many the first time they hear it. When injected properly into the air charge of an engine, water and water alone, is a remarkable detonation suppressant. The most notable advantages of using water injection is it's inability to detonate as well as it's substantial cooling effect it has on air charge temperatures, combustion temperatures and exhaust gas temperatures. Best of all...it's basically free. Water has a high latent heat of vaporization. Approximately, 8 times that of gasoline and can reduce intake charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees F on supercharged and turbocharged engines almost instantly when sprayed properly. It’s also an extremely effective octane booster. Since water does not burn “per‘ say, when atomized properly with pump gas, it will effectively increase the fuels octane. Doing so, by improving the fuels ability to resist self-ignition under higher cylinder pressures and hotter cylinder temperatures thus suppressing detonation.

The easiest fluid to use is a non detergent blue windshield washer fluid…this will contain water and methanol!

Through testing and research, comparing high-octane fuels vs. 87-93 octane pump gas combined with 100% water injection (no alcohol mix added). Depending on the build of the motor and volume injected, it is estimated octane increases of 10-20+ points can be achieved by using 100% water injection with 87-93 octane gas. This is after evaluating maximum allowable total timing advance and maximum attainable boost levels with out detonation or pre-ignition.

Benefits of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection on NA application:

Lower air charge temperatures by 30-40 degree's
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 10-15+ points
Allows the use of lower grades fuels
Allows you to safely run more timing
Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

[DSteck]

Originally Posted by ProudLS

You are right but I will still have some gain especially when you fill your car with 91 Octane and live in a hot area :(

Eh, you'd be surprised. I doubt you will notice much. A stock compression LS3 doesn't neccessarily need the higher octane, and more timing doesn't always mean more power. It's possible to run more timing past your MBT, and not knock. For what you'd spend, I honestly wouldn't even bother unless you end up doing 13:1 compression or some sort of forced induction.

If you want to clean your pistons, just spray nitrous. Done.

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by ProudLS

I found this article and I want to share it with you guys

Why Water Methanol Injection?
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.

In recent years, water methanol injection has become ever more popular and recognized as an invaluable tool for both gasoline and diesel forced induction engines as well as naturally aspirated applications. While often times referred to as a “chemical intercooler” it is more commonly used in forced induction applications due to it’s substantial cooling effects and added octane increase it adds to pump gas. Reducing air intake charge temperatures by 50-200+ degrees F almost instantly. Providing a substantially cooler denser air charge for a greater expansion of power within the combustion chamber. While also largely eliminating the problem of engine “knocking” and allowing user to run higher levels of boost, compression and increased timing.

As mentioned already. Water methanol injection has also become a tried-and-true proven way for users to effectively increase their 87-93 octane pump gas. Depending on the amount injected, gains up to 10-20+ points in octane can be achieved. Thus, making 91 octane pump gas act like 105-116 octane racing fuel in their engines. Thereby eliminating our dependency for notoriously expensive racing fuels, which can cost upwards of $8.00-$12.00 per gallon, as so many of us have reluctantly had to use in the past. Costing only pennies to operate when using 100% water, its also a far more effective, affordable and convenient of a solution to those expensive octane booster fuel additives as well.


What types of fluids can I use?

Water and various grains of alcohol, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol, are the primary fluids which are commonly used in a water alcohol injection systems. Depending on the application, we have found mixtures of 40/60 water and methanol to perform the best without the risk of being a flammable fluid. This surprises many the first time they hear it. When injected properly into the air charge of an engine, water and water alone, is a remarkable detonation suppressant. The most notable advantages of using water injection is it's inability to detonate as well as it's substantial cooling effect it has on air charge temperatures, combustion temperatures and exhaust gas temperatures. Best of all...it's basically free. Water has a high latent heat of vaporization. Approximately, 8 times that of gasoline and can reduce intake charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees F on supercharged and turbocharged engines almost instantly when sprayed properly. It’s also an extremely effective octane booster. Since water does not burn “per‘ say, when atomized properly with pump gas, it will effectively increase the fuels octane. Doing so, by improving the fuels ability to resist self-ignition under higher cylinder pressures and hotter cylinder temperatures thus suppressing detonation.

The easiest fluid to use is a non detergent blue windshield washer fluid…this will contain water and methanol!

Through testing and research, comparing high-octane fuels vs. 87-93 octane pump gas combined with 100% water injection (no alcohol mix added). Depending on the build of the motor and volume injected, it is estimated octane increases of 10-20+ points can be achieved by using 100% water injection with 87-93 octane gas. This is after evaluating maximum allowable total timing advance and maximum attainable boost levels with out detonation or pre-ignition.

Benefits of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection on NA application:

Lower air charge temperatures by 30-40 degree's
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 10-15+ points
Allows the use of lower grades fuels
Allows you to safely run more timing
Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

The article is interesting as "a theory" but in real world application if it was so economical and worked as the article implies, the use of it would equal or exceed CAI's and long tubes in popularity.

[ProudLS]

Originally Posted by DSteck

Eh, you'd be surprised. I doubt you will notice much. A stock compression LS3 doesn't neccessarily need the higher octane, and more timing doesn't always mean more power. It's possible to run more timing past your MBT, and not knock. For what you'd spend, I honestly wouldn't even bother unless you end up doing 13:1 compression or some sort of forced induction.

If you want to clean your pistons, just spray nitrous. Done.

Nitrous is a good idea, hellow 500RWHP

[ProudLS]

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

The article is interesting as "a theory" but in real world application if it was so economical and worked as the article implies, the use of it would equal or exceed CAI's and long tubes in popularity.

We can not deny the benefits of spraying Meth but as Dsteck stated I am not going to notice that much difference..!!

[topgun1]

Originally Posted by DSteck

If you want to clean your pistons, just spray nitrous. Done.

[GQ4Life]

Originally Posted by ProudLS

I have a windshield washer liquid from Cyclo that has 98% Methyl alcohol (Methanol) will it work fine to kill detonation and add more octane when spray it after the MAF? Do I need to mix water with this formula?

Will it require a tune? I have been told that it makes the car rich

Thanks,

wow nice.. how much is that stuff?
Cyclo® 100% Concentrate Windshield Washer
90-100% methanol
MSDS http://www.cyclo.com/system/images/msds/C207.pdf


well adding meth inj to my car but it is supercharged. On NA your not going to gain much to make it worth while. Add a supercharger then you got reason to install meth inj

[monstermatt]

rr

[JR-Vette]

Originally Posted by ProudLS

I have a windshield washer liquid from Cyclo that has 98% Methyl alcohol (Methanol) will it work fine to kill detonation and add more octane when spray it after the MAF? Do I need to mix water with this formula?

Will it require a tune? I have been told that it makes the car rich

Thanks,

If your interested in this do a cyberspace search and locate the findings by the US military during WW-II.
The findings lead to water/meth being used in like fighter planes.

Their testing and many others like I have done found the same answer and that is BEST case is 50/50% ratio mix
Using more meth then that only can quench the cylinder and slow the burn rate down

Most cases people use winter version of windshield washer fluid.
-20 deg WW fluid has 38% meth, it is cheap as places like Walmart sell a gallon for under $2.
Pulling straight meth is about $4-5 a gallon and feds think people can make bombs from it so if buying from a vendor not local expect to pay much more for a hazard shipping cost.

Most of us use the WW tank and have it clean windshield ( even if using 50/50 % ratio) and another hose to feed the water/meth pump.

I have been doing this since mid 1970s when the first oil scam job occurred in my 1974 Corvette and every one since and they ALL have been NA engines.

With higher engine compressions, lousy gas with ethanol in it using water/meth is not just what performance gains you can get but also preventing performance loss as lousy gas, hot weather, etc causes PCM to detune engine and to yank lots of timing during engine knock

Every time PCM pulls timing then the engine has to recover between high and low octane (knock) tables which is a killer such as being at a drag strip

Using water/meth cares if engine is NA or boost as it's purpose is to

1. pulls out about 40 degrees of heat from intake air
2. methanol hitting cylinders gives a cleaner, better burning charge.
3. prevents knock
4. cleans carbon off pistons and valves.
5. increases the octane level
6. prevents timing loss that also reduces torque
7. with little or no knock with water/meth with a good tune allows more timing which increases engine output
8. helps make up for the lousy ethanol gas. Feds just approved that 15% ( E15) can be sold, the more ethanol in gas the less performance, mileage, leaner fuel trims, more engine knock and the water/meth helps make up for those losses and issues.
9. Since methanol and colder air in cylinders cools the charge down then the AFR is richer thus takes load off the fuel injectors, or allows injectors that were over a 80% duty cycle to be reduced so that a bit larger injectors are not needed

My 1999 NA LS1 C5 at 500 HP has used water/meth for 10 years with zero long term issues.
Even when injecting 200 HP shot N20 have used water/meth at the same time with no ills.
Inspection of pistons and valves have no carbon build up as the build up increases of carbon also then increases cylinder compression which induces more engine knock.

Finally back in mid 1970s even GM had a few car models that came with water/meth with NA engines.
Problem was car owners did not understand water/meth and would never fill the water/meth tanks
Today with the electronics even WW tanks with low fluid volume sensors it is simple to use water/meth on a daily basis