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View Poll Results: What should we ask Al in January?
Explanation of Launch Control 252 61.02%
A8 Transmission Shudder Question 134 32.45%
ZL1 1LE Nurburgring Suspension Settings 17 4.12%
Why Was The M7 Transmission Not Used 10 2.42%
Voters: 413. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-18-2018, 09:40 AM   #29
Norm Peterson
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Fair enough.

I guess I'd rather have everybody have to guess which way I voted (and never know for sure) than have everybody know right away and have people in three of these four discussions feel that I effectively voted against their topic.


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Old 01-18-2018, 02:38 PM   #30
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Definitely in for the bog issue m6's have. Zl1 and ss

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Old 01-18-2018, 02:50 PM   #31
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How about why this car seems to be so unreliable and require so many repairs. I think that's much more valid than how to use launch control. My 2SS just spent 6 weeks at the dealer for various repairs and TSBs.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:06 PM   #32
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How about why this car seems to be so unreliable and require so many repairs. I think that's much more valid than how to use launch control. My 2SS just spent 6 weeks at the dealer for various repairs and TSBs.
It's unfortunate that you're having trouble with your car. Are you sure your dealer isn't part of the problem (i.e. causing problems while fixing problems)? I guess I kind of feel like the cars are generally reliable for a performance vehicle, but I don't have the data to back that up.

Anyway, the launch control topic runs a little deeper than simply how to use launch control. There are a lot of people struggling with launching the M6 cars, especially the M6 ZL1.

I've ran lots of 1/4 mile passes with my ZL1, and my PB 1/4 mile time is slower than what you have quoted in your signature for the 2SS. Many other people are having the same problem which is why the topic is so popular. Whether you compare the 6th Gen M6 ZL1 to an M6 SS, A8 SS, or the A10 ZL1; the time/horsepower discrepancies simply don't add up... Something is wrong.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by travislambert View Post
It's unfortunate that you're having trouble with your car. Are you sure your dealer isn't part of the problem (i.e. causing problems while fixing problems)? I guess I kind of feel like the cars are generally reliable for a performance vehicle, but I don't have the data to back that up.

Anyway, the launch control topic runs a little deeper than simply how to use launch control. There are a lot of people struggling with launching the M6 cars, especially the M6 ZL1.

I've ran lots of 1/4 mile passes with my ZL1, and my PB 1/4 mile time is slower than what you have quoted in your signature for the 2SS. Many other people are having the same problem which is why the topic is so popular. Whether you compare the 6th Gen M6 ZL1 to an M6 SS, A8 SS, or the A10 ZL1; the time/horsepower discrepancies simply don't add up... Something is wrong.
Not the dealer, there are a lot of threads on this forum with people having all kinds of problems, myself included. Dealer worked with GM Engineering for a couple weeks. Latest round of repairs included a torque converter replacement which most think will just fail again. I think these issues should take priority if we're getting "the man's" ear, but that's just my opinion.

As to your track issues, M6... they are going to be slow and I'm speaking from experience in my old Challenger. Took me forever to learn to drive that car and a custom tune to be fast (10.80 at 130MPH 1/4) with a blower on the car, clutch, and a bunch of other stuff. M6 fun to drive, but PITA on the track.

Beyond that, the issue is torque management and a custom tune will be required, but that's getting off topic I reckon.
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Old 01-18-2018, 04:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Speedy1975 View Post
...
I think these issues should take priority if we're getting "the man's" ear, but that's just my opinion.
...
We all have different opinions on what the priority should be. That's why we vote.

Don't worry. It looks like the support for the A8 topic is really strong. If it doesn't get selected this month, it certainly stands a great chance for next month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy1975 View Post
...
As to your track issues, M6... they are going to be slow and I'm speaking from experience in my old Challenger. Took me forever to learn to drive that car and a custom tune to be fast (10.80 at 130MPH 1/4) with a blower on the car, clutch, and a bunch of other stuff. M6 fun to drive, but PITA on the track.

Beyond that, the issue is torque management and a custom tune will be required, but that's getting off topic I reckon.
I agree, but I'd like to add that just because it's a manual doesn't fully excuse a car from being able to launch in its factory configuration. There are at least some reasonable expectations at play especially since line-lock, launch control, "triple threat", etc. were heavily marketed.

We're not talking about getting into the 10s. Most of us M6 ZL1 guys would be happy with 11s. And it's not like it's just a few guys having trouble launching. Lots of guys with the M6 are struggling, including nearly every M6 ZL1 owner.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:20 PM   #35
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Yea right. (insert sarcasm)

That's why the ZL1 A-10 ran a 10.0 in the Quarter Mile with factory parts.


If GM can do this for the 1/4 mile Cars they can eliminate the 1LE M6 Issues.

The larger issue is WHY?
Auto V Manual on the drag strip with all things equal we all know who gets the win.

The A10 bogs like crap over half the runs I've made. Then when the stars align it takes off and goes and you see those hero times. I ran 11.1 in the heat at fest last year. Then with the same exact settings and launch I ran 11.7. Every bit of that difference in time was the 60" with no spinning either run. Did this over and over with no consistency due to bog. Might as well just make 60' runs until I feel it take off, otherwise hit the brakes.

I've done at least fifty or more 0-60 timed runs in all different configurations including drag radials. 3.6 one time and the next run a 4.1 with exact settings and traction.

Yes there are more variables with the clutch making it even more difficult but I'm here to say the bog issue is the same, except the auto covers it up better.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:51 PM   #36
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Auto V Manual on the drag strip with all things equal we all know who gets the win.

The A10 bogs like crap over half the runs I've made. Then when the stars align it takes off and goes and you see those hero times. I ran 11.1 in the heat at fest last year. Then with the same exact settings and launch I ran 11.7. Every bit of that difference in time was the 60" with no spinning either run. Did this over and over with no consistency due to bog. Might as well just make 60' runs until I feel it take off, otherwise hit the brakes.

I've done at least fifty or more 0-60 timed runs in all different configurations including drag radials. 3.6 one time and the next run a 4.1 with exact settings and traction.

Yes there are more variables with the clutch making it even more difficult but I'm here to say the bog issue is the same, except the auto covers it up better.
It makes sense that the A10 struggles with similar problems but simply covers it up better. The engineers certainly took a little extra time to get the A10 right as they had a lot riding on the success of the A10.

I'm hopeful that the Camaro engineers will be able to help us all, even if the A10 guys only see an improvement in consistency (A10s already have impressive hero runs).

Just for comparison sake... At the Fest, same day/same track as your 11.1, I was only able to get a 12.3 in the manual (I made three passes, ran three 12.3s).
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:49 PM   #37
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The bog thread was closed and merged into the launch control thread....
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511546
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Originally Posted by ninetres View Post
They seem to be entirely separate issues to me. There are widespread complaints about having issues leaving stop signs, spirited starts etc.....not just on an all out drag launch that would benefit from fiddling with the launch control settings for a minute every time you want to drive faster from a stop than granny would.

I considered trading my a10, for a Krypton Green m6 car and the bog issue was a major factor in not doing so. An amazing thorough explanation of the launch control feature would not address the bog concern.
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I'm thinking it could be two sides of the same coin. Loosely related.


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I am confident the topics will be loosely related at least. A part of the closed thread and merged effort with Travis was because we thought we were going to have to get creative both with how to get the topic added to the poll since it was skipped without much explanation at the time, and how to ensure we get a valuable response from the GM team (so we don't tie their hands. I'm hopeful with the proper wording of the questions we adequatey address the full scope here.


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Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
A little background on this one:

As you can imagine, in order to make this thread work for all parties, we had to work with the Camaro Team to lay out some basic ground rules that made sense for the purpose of this forum.

That said, some of these questions are highly sensitive, and frankly difficult to answer while toeing the company line. (Those are my words) So Mike and I opted to pass over the "iffy" questions last month until we figured out how best to handle it. Obviously, that wasn't a popular move. For that, we apologize, but I hope you can understand why we did it.

Since then, we've discussed the popularity of these topics (ZL1 launching and A8) with the Camaro Team to choose the best path forward. They acknowledged that these topics weren't in the realm of what we wanted for the forum (ie. "troubleshooting") but to my personal surprise, they said they wanted to address the issues anyways as best they could for you - as enthusiasts of their product!

So we've included both of these in the poll this month...the Camaro Team is ready: it's up to you to choose what to pick.

The other two questions are recurring due to popularity, and we have more in the cue (based on popularity) for next month. Thank you for your participation, and enthusiasm as we all work to improve this new method of communicaton.

Questions:

1) Explanation of ZL1 Launch Control
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515791

2) A8 Transmission Shudder Question
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510888

3) ZL1 1LE Nurburgring Suspension Settings
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508671

4) Why was the M7 transmission not used in the ZL1/1LE Camaro?
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=517683

As always, the poll will be closed in 7 days, and the winning question will be submitted to the Camaro Team.
Any "losing" questions, may be recycled next month.
Thanks for the added transparency. As I'm sure you've seen, a lot of the frustration was with the lack of explanation - though I think most of us assumed the additional dialogue with GM was occurring behind the scenes.


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It's not solely a 6 speed thing. Bog issue resides with the A10 as well.
Lol, with all due respect, no way. You have to drive one of these M6 - it's like nothing you've ever seen before.

I believe you've seen the variances you later described, but I'd suggest it is different still.

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If the launch control wins, please word the “question” according to the actual area of interest which is the bog....,and NOT about using the launch control feature or how the feature works. It’s obvious both here and in the linked thread nobody cares about what launch rpm to use, or tire slip percent to program, or how that feature works. The members are concerned with the bog, I own an a10 and I genuinely think it’s the biggest problem with the m6 Camaro platform currently.
Agree. I, and I know Travis at least, would appreciate an opportunity to make sure we get the wording right. We may only get one shot at this one.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:51 PM   #38
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It makes sense that the A10 struggles with similar problems but simply covers it up better. The engineers certainly took a little extra time to get the A10 right as they had a lot riding on the success of the A10.

I'm hopeful that the Camaro engineers will be able to help us all, even if the A10 guys only see an improvement in consistency (A10s already have impressive hero runs).

Just for comparison sake... At the Fest, same day/same track as your 11.1, I was only able to get a 12.3 in the manual (I made three passes, ran three 12.3s).
Every other auto I've owned I got bored running the exact same times over and over and over. Great bracket racing. My last manual was a lot of fun trying to nail the launch and subsequent shifts, but not as consistent as the auto, but still ran predictable times.

This car just pisses me off every time I launch because I never know. Now I just turn it all off and trying to learn it that way. I seriously think the problem is equal between the M6 and A10. And I don't really think it was extra time spent on the A10 to get it right. It's just the nature of auto v manual. But then what the heck to I know.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Infern0 View Post
Thanks for the added transparency. As I'm sure you've seen, a lot of the frustration was with the lack of explanation - though I think most of us assumed the additional dialogue with GM was occurring behind the scenes.
It was a tough spot for us, really. We need to stay true to the intention of this section in order for it to succeed, or it could to turn into a customer complaint line: which is exactly the opposite of our intent (Mike, I, or Chevy). We all wanted a new way to learn cool "behind the scenes" stuff about our car.

At the same time, I fully subscribe to the idea that some things are better left out of "committee" in order to get done correctly, and quickly. Especially not while in-process, and I'll never post a play-by-play...these are not always popular moves with the group at large, but it works.

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Agree. I, and I know Travis at least, would appreciate an opportunity to make sure we get the wording right. We may only get one shot at this one.
The question, as phrased in the linked thread will be the formal question. Rest assured, though; they have read everything you guys have said in both threads. So the response will be as all-encompassing as they are willing to get. I guess what I'm saying is we could email them: "ZL1 launching troubles, Go!" and it wouldn't make a lick of difference - they are very familiar with our (the forum) opinions and expectations on this topic.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:07 PM   #40
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Every other auto I've owned I got bored running the exact same times over and over and over. Great bracket racing. My last manual was a lot of fun trying to nail the launch and subsequent shifts, but not as consistent as the auto, but still ran predictable times.

This car just pisses me off every time I launch because I never know. Now I just turn it all off and trying to learn it that way. I seriously think the problem is equal between the M6 and A10. And I don't really think it was extra time spent on the A10 to get it right. It's just the nature of auto v manual. But then what the heck to I know.
The consistency problems you describe align perfectly with the problems I describe with using a "% of Wheel Slip" for launch control. The simple fact is, a percentage doesn't work well at low speeds. The percentages can just spike arbitrarily due to very small amount of sensor error, latency, etc. even a small amount of actual slip can result in massive spikes in the percentage value before the front wheels get moving.

GM could ignore the readings at low speed to avoid the problem, but since it's launch control and not roll-race control, I believe it's a flawed approach... But what do I know?
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:15 PM   #41
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...
The question, as phrased in the linked thread will be the formal question. Rest assured, though; they have read everything you guys have said in both threads. So the response will be as all-encompassing as they are willing to get. I guess what I'm saying is we could email them: "ZL1 launching troubles, Go!" and it wouldn't make a lick of difference - they are very familiar with our (the forum) opinions and expectations on this topic.
I agree completely. I'm not sure I'd want to change the wording of the question anyway. I believe the wording already hits in the areas of interest that will help us all better understand what's going on while launching.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:19 PM   #42
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The question, as phrased in the linked thread will be the formal question. Rest assured, though; they have read everything you guys have said in both threads. So the response will be as all-encompassing as they are willing to get. I guess what I'm saying is we could email them: "ZL1 launching troubles, Go!" and it wouldn't make a lick of difference - they are very familiar with our (the forum) opinions and expectations on this topic.
lol, fair enough.
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