GM High-feature V6 on SS models?

[AJL13]

Hi Al,

Long time lurker, short time owner, first time poster. From reading the forum protocol, I know you are not at liberty to discuss future Camaro plans with us plebs. That being said, how would you feel if the Camaro SS made the switch from high-displacement V8 to smaller displacement forced induction? I think the LF4 would be a perfect engine for the next generation SS; even in it's mild version, it produces more power than the LTI; I'm sure with minor tweaking, you could have the LF4 producing 500+HP crank...not to mention the weight savings benefits, fuel mileage benefits, etc. How would you feel about a potential shift in philosophy? Thank you in advance.

[MiamiBlueCamaro]

This is what i need.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Hi Al,

Long time lurker, short time owner, first time poster. From reading the forum protocol, I know you are not at liberty to discuss future Camaro plans with us plebs. That being said, how would you feel if the Camaro SS made the switch from high-displacement V8 to smaller displacement forced induction? I think the LF4 would be a perfect engine for the next generation SS; even in it's mild version, it produces more power than the LTI; I'm sure with minor tweaking, you could have the LF4 producing 500+HP crank...not to mention the weight savings benefits, fuel mileage benefits, etc. How would you feel about a potential shift in philosophy? Thank you in advance.

Might want to check up on your basis for thinking the LF4 would be so great compared to the LT1.

For fuel mileage and performance, look to the ATS-V. Straight line is practically identical between the two (because its only a 9 hp difference on cars that are otherwise extremely similar) but the Camaro is actually a little bit more efficient getting about 2 mpg better highway mileage (same in the city). Turbocharging does not magically make an engine more efficient for its power class. When you've got a very 'hot' tune in a turbo engine that makes lots of boost and cranks out lots of power, you normally lose efficiency vs a much larger naturally aspirated engine.

As to the weight, I think the LF4 is around 20 lbs heavier than the LT1. The extra 3 cams, 8 valves, 2 turbochargers, and the inter-cooling system add a lot of weight to an engine.

And this is very subjective, but look at the number of ATS-V reviews where they mention something to the effect of 'This car would be awesome with an LT1'. It happens almost every time someone gets in that car. But the opposite never happens: where someone has gotten into the Camaro SS and said 'Man, wouldn't this car be so much better with the LF4?'. Sure, every now and then folks like yourself pop up on the forum and say that they want it ... but I haven't seen anyone who day in, day out, is driving anything and everything that manufacturers offer up say that the LF4 would be an improvement for the Camaro.

Moving from subjectivity to outright speculation, but given emissions requirements and what not I bet it isn't really any easier for GM to get 500 hp out of the LF4 as it is for the LT1.

[Bhobbs]

Why would anyone give up an n/a small block for a TTV6, that only makes 9 more horsepower and less torque. I’ve read plenty of reviews that wished the ATS-V had the LT1. Ive yet to see anyone want the LF4 over the LT1 in the SS.

[AJL13]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Why would anyone give up an n/a small block for a TTV6, that only makes 9 more horsepower and less torque. I’ve read plenty of reviews that wished the ATS-V had the LT1. Ive yet to see anyone want the LF4 over the LT1 in the SS.

Several performance marques (Porsche, BMW, Mercedes) have ditched larger N/A engines for smaller-displacement forced induction powerplants. You pretty much can't buy a 911 or an M-series car that isn't forced induction. Hell, BMW did exactly this when they transitioned from the S65 to the S55 in the M3, and that's just one example.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Several performance marques (Porsche, BMW, Mercedes) have ditched larger N/A engines for smaller-displacement forced induction powerplants. You pretty much can't buy a 911 or an M-series car that isn't forced induction. Hell, BMW did exactly this when they transitioned from the S65 to the S55 in the M3, and that's just one example.

They aren't doing it because its better, they're doing it because they don't have a whole lot of choice.

[MiamiBlueCamaro]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Several performance marques (Porsche, BMW, Mercedes) have ditched larger N/A engines for smaller-displacement forced induction powerplants. You pretty much can't buy a 911 or an M-series car that isn't forced induction. Hell, BMW did exactly this when they transitioned from the S65 to the S55 in the M3, and that's just one example.

True and let not forget this "two" more cars.....

[CruzySS]

I would buy a V6 twin turbo Camaro in a heartbeat!

[Norm Peterson]

↑↑↑ As the owner of a turbocharged car, I doubt I would unless the same powertrain choices turn out to be the case with a future Camaro as I was faced with back in 2010 with 'her car'.

Turning up the wick on a turbocharged engine is typically paid for in part by further compromises in drivability (off-boost performance, throttle lag).


And FWIW, BMW has been on a path away from their 'Ultimate Driving Machine' for some time now. One of the costs of catering to the mainstream buyer rather than the more serious enthusiast.


Norm

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Several performance marques (Porsche, BMW, Mercedes) have ditched larger N/A engines for smaller-displacement forced induction powerplants. You pretty much can't buy a 911 or an M-series car that isn't forced induction. Hell, BMW did exactly this when they transitioned from the S65 to the S55 in the M3, and that's just one example.

That's in the EU, where you are taxed on engine displacement. Hence why they have all dropped to FI 4s and 6s. Thankfully we don't have that here, but I'm sure there will come a day where the SS won't have a V8.

[AJL13]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

They aren't doing it because its better, they're doing it because they don't have a whole lot of choice.

Would you mind explaining what you are alluding to?

[AJL13]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Turning up the wick on a turbocharged engine is typically paid for in part by further compromises in drivability (off-boost performance, throttle lag).
Norm

Forced induction has come a long way since the 1980s. The drivability issues you pointed to have been pretty well addressed in the last 30 years of advancement in regards to F/I engines. One the other side of the coin, if/when GM makes a SB OHV V8 that revs to 9k and decides to stick it in the Camaro, I won't mention F/I ever again.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Forced induction has come a long way since the 1980s. The drivability issues you pointed to have been pretty well addressed in the last 30 years of advancement in regards to F/I engines. One the other side of the coin, if/when GM makes a SB OHV V8 that revs to 9k and decides to stick it in the Camaro, I won't mention F/I ever again.

You're still going to be caught off boost from time to time, especially if you've got a MT behind it. And boost lag is still real. Not as bad as in the 80's (or the 1960s' turbo Corvairs), but you still have to anticipate (guess?) where you're actually going to be when the boost finally does come in when you're driving through a sweeper.

Those with AT's and anybody who coasts through the corners (or rolls through them on cruise control) may never run into either of the above situations. I can't help noticing them.


Norm

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by AJL13

Would you mind explaining what you are alluding to?

Europe taxes cars based on the size of the motor, so the larger the displacement, the more tax you pay. That's on top of the premium for specific models, especially cars like the Camaro. That is why an SS Camaro will run you almost 80-90k in the UK but 30-40k here....


Additionally, this is why GM brought back the 2.0L turbo so that they could start making real headway into EU with sales.