Shelby GT350R faster than Z/28?

[shaffe]

Going off of what Taco said, I think that is where Ford learned from GM. They went balls to the wall with the Z/28 and good for them. They built one hell of a machine. Ford with their track star, is going to offer a less hardcore version the 350. And even in the hardcore R model, you can still get the tech goodies if you want them. I think GM should take note of that for the next go around with a 6th Gen Z/28.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Going off of what Taco said, I think that is where Ford learned from GM. They went balls to the wall with the Z/28 and good for them. They built one hell of a machine. Ford with their track star, is going to offer a less hardcore version the 350. And even in the hardcore R model, you can still get the tech goodies if you want them. I think GM should take note of that for the next go around with a 6th Gen Z/28.

It was no mistake although I agree with your point. I would have bought a $55k, LS7 Z/28 without CCB.

We set out to make the fastest road-racing Camaro possible that was still street-legal,” said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. “While the Camaro ZL1 offers exceptional performance on the street, the drag strip, and the track, the Z/28 is entirely focused on the track performance. The Z/28 will be too track-focused for most drivers, but offers road-racers one of the most capable track cars ever offered from an automaker
http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/...amaro-z28.html

[RobWH]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Did you even bother to READ the article?

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn't repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the Shelby had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

"So, yes, the Mustang turned a faster lap, but if it's not repeatable, is it really a win? Find a 2.23-mile autocross and you might have something, but in any road race, the Mustang is going to quickly fall behind."

By the third lap the Camaro was in front for good.

How about Road&Track's test at Grattan Raceway?

ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53

"Repeated braking into Turn 1 was a big test for the Brembos on both cars, and only once was there panic from a soft pedal. That pedal belonged to the GT500, which ended its timed lapping session after seven hot laps. The ZL1's brakes never faltered and in conjunction with the MR suspension provided superior confidence in decreasing-radius brake zones. The GT500 kept wanting to swing its tail out, causing a bit of trepidation and decreased speed."

How about the full body of work?

Streets of Willow (1.6 miles)
1LE 1:22.70
GT500 1:23.48

Grattan (2.0 miles)
ZL1 1:27.95
GT500 1:28.53

GingerMan (2.2 miles)
Z/28 1:41.80
ZL1 1:42.05
GT500 1:45.21

Laguna Seca (2.2 miles)
Z/28 1:37.82
GT500 1:38.70
ZL1 1:39.18

Sachsenring (2.3 miles)
Z/28 1:35.20
ZL1 1:38.13
GT500 1:38.26

Milford (2.9 miles)
Z/28 1:53.71
ZL1 1:56.58
1LE 1:58.85
Boss 302 LS 1:59.05
GT500 1:59.97

VIR (4.2 miles)
Z/28 2:50.9
ZL1 2:52.38
1LE 2:58.34
GT500 3:00.60

Nurburgring
ZL1 7:41.27
GT500 0:00.00

So the GT500 posted one good lap time one one track (Laguna Seca) then quickly fell behind by the third lap. The ZL1 is faster around every other track tested.

The only thing I think is HILARIOUS here is, you only pointed out the Camaro WINS and where it lost, you just left it off. I don't care because you were only trying to point out wins, but it is kinda... "forgetful" of you.

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

How many races are a single lap?

"By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30"

Convenient you omit the other same day head-to-head comparisons:

Road&Track at Grattan Raceway
ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...et-camaro-zl1/

Car&Driver at VIR
ZL1 2:57.50
GT500 3:00.60
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...t-laps-feature

How many people road race their Mustang or Camaro? Perhaps 1/10th of 1% of owners?

Aside from that, in SCCA racing, the real truth is, the Camaro(5th gen) has had it's posterior handed to it for years on end. I'm NOT a road racing fan myself. I mean, I like to watch and all, but I'll never waste my money actually doing it again. If I do, I'll get a Miata and do it on the cheap.

By the way, by the 3rd lap, the Mustang posted a slower ET... it was still faster overall for the 1st through 3rd laps, from the looks.

More importantly perhaps... ONLY the brakes can be pointed to as to the hy GT500 lost, when it lost. If that's your ONLY problem... a quick change by any owner will alleviate the problem. That's a win all by itself.

Now, I'm not buying a GT500 because of it, but then, the facts remain. Th new GT350R, by contrast, will ANNIHILATE the GT500 on basically any course where long straights can't create a win. I won't be shocked or offended to learn the same GT350R does the same to the Z/28 and so on... it will, guaranteed. For the next Z/28, or ZL1... that may very well change. The 2015 Z/28 though, and any other GM production Camaro, stands little chance here. That's life and there's no need to be upset over it(not to you, but generally).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

It was no mistake although I agree with your point. I would have bought a $55k, LS7 Z/28 without CCB.

Yep. I think they will go that route if/when 6th gen Z comes. Offer the hardcore track variant, but if people want goodies lump them all in a tech package like ford did.

Originally Posted by RobWH

The only thing I think is HILARIOUS here is, you only pointed out the Camaro WINS and where it lost, you just left it off. I don't care because you were only trying to point out wins, but it is kinda... "forgetful" of you.

How many people road race their Mustang or Camaro? Perhaps 1/10th of 1% of owners?

Aside from that, in SCCA racing, the real truth is, the Camaro(5th gen) has had it's posterior handed to it for years on end. I'm NOT a road racing fan myself. I mean, I like to watch and all, but I'll never waste my money actually doing it again. If I do, I'll get a Miata and do it on the cheap.

By the way, by the 3rd lap, the Mustang posted a slower ET... it was still faster overall for the 1st through 3rd laps, from the looks.

More importantly perhaps... ONLY the brakes can be pointed to as to the hy GT500 lost, when it lost. If that's your ONLY problem... a quick change by any owner will alleviate the problem. That's a win all by itself.

Now, I'm not buying a GT500 because of it, but then, the facts remain. Th new GT350R, by contrast, will ANNIHILATE the GT500 on basically any course where long straights can't create a win. I won't be shocked or offended to learn the same GT350R does the same to the Z/28 and so on... it will, guaranteed. For the next Z/28, or ZL1... that may very well change. The 2015 Z/28 though, and any other GM production Camaro, stands little chance here. That's life and there's no need to be upset over it(not to you, but generally).

Not wanting to go back in time to the GT500 vs ZL1 debate, I believe I recall there was more than just Laguna where the GT500 posted a better lap.

I also believe that it is stated in the owners manual of the GT500 that if you are doing high performance driving it was recommended to change the brake fluid, which would eliminate the brake fade...BUT Ford probably should have just put better fluid in it from the get go.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by RobWH

The only thing I think is HILARIOUS here is, you only pointed out the Camaro WINS and where it lost, you just left it off. I don't care because you were only trying to point out wins, but it is kinda... "forgetful" of you.

My post BEGINS with a direct quote saying the GT500 was faster around Laguna Seca than the ZL1. Sadly this only lasted for two laps. The third and subsequent laps were slower in the GT500. The only other head-to-head lap times were R&T and C&D, both of which the ZL1 won.

Road&Track at Grattan Raceway
ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53

Car&Driver at VIR
ZL1 2:57.50
GT500 3:00.60

The long list of lap times is from FastLaps and not a same-day, same-driver comparison. I only post it to show the effect of longer, more complex tracks where the GT500 falls farther behind as length increases.

If you have other lap times where the GT500 is faster than the ZL1 please share them with us. But don't criticize me for "forgetting" and then not identify what I allegedly omitted.

Originally Posted by RobWH

How many people road race their Mustang or Camaro? Perhaps 1/10th of 1% of owners?

Does the number of people road racing have any determination on the ZL1 outperforming the GT500 on a track? How many 911, 458 Italia, GT-R owners road race? Does that in any way diminish the track performance of these cars?

Originally Posted by RobWH

Aside from that, in SCCA racing, the real truth is, the Camaro(5th gen) has had it's posterior handed to it for years on end. I'm NOT a road racing fan myself. I mean, I like to watch and all, but I'll never waste my money actually doing it again. If I do, I'll get a Miata and do it on the cheap.

If it's a waste of money and doesn't interest you, then what is your interest in this thread?

Originally Posted by RobWH

By the way, by the 3rd lap, the Mustang posted a slower ET... it was still faster overall for the 1st through 3rd laps, from the looks.

This has already been discussed. The authors don't provide individual lap results for the ZL1. Given the physical impossibility of having Randy Pobst race both cars simultaneously on the track, we are left with the authors statement:

"So, yes, the Mustang turned a faster lap, but if it's not repeatable, is it really a win? Find a 2.23-mile autocross and you might have something, but in any road race, the Mustang is going to quickly fall behind."

Originally Posted by RobWH

More importantly perhaps... ONLY the brakes can be pointed to as to the hy GT500 lost, when it lost. If that's your ONLY problem... a quick change by any owner will alleviate the problem. That's a win all by itself.

Akin to saying power is the only real problem from the ZL1 being an 11-sec car like the GT500. If ONLY it had a CAI it could run 11.4.

"By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight."

Hmmmmm so all Ford needed to do on their halo car - the most powerful production Mustang ever - was "a quick brake change" and it would have alleviated its road course woes and let it turn faster laps than a ZL1 with consistency? And they didn't do this why?

Originally Posted by RobWH

Th new GT350R, by contrast, will ANNIHILATE the GT500 on basically any course where long straights can't create a win. I won't be shocked or offended to learn the same GT350R does the same to the Z/28 and so on... it will, guaranteed. For the next Z/28, or ZL1... that may very well change. The 2015 Z/28 though, and any other GM production Camaro, stands little chance here. That's life and there's no need to be upset over it(not to you, but generally).

So now we're on to speculation? Any evidence to lend support to your "guaranteed" claims? Define "ANNIHILATE"? Is the 3 second lead by the ZL1 over the GT500 around VIR "ANNIHILATION"? Perhaps when you're out of hyperbole to spew we can get back to a productive discussion.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Not wanting to go back in time to the GT500 vs ZL1 debate, I believe I recall there was more than just Laguna where the GT500 posted a better lap.

Please let us know when you find this mystery lap. I will add it to my list above.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I also believe that it is stated in the owners manual of the GT500 that if you are doing high performance driving it was recommended to change the brake fluid, which would eliminate the brake fade...BUT Ford probably should have just put better fluid in it from the get go.

"By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight."

That doesn't sound like a fluid problem. The ZL1 seemed just fine with factory fill brake fluid.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

My post BEGINS with a direct quote saying the GT500 was faster around Laguna Seca than the ZL1. Sadly this only lasted for two laps. The third and subsequent laps were slower in the GT500. The only other head-to-head lap times were R&T and C&D, both of which the ZL1 won.

Road&Track at Grattan Raceway
ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53

Car&Driver at VIR
ZL1 2:57.50
GT500 3:00.60

Please let us know when you find this mystery lap. I will add it to my list above.



"By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight."

That doesn't sound like a fluid problem. The ZL1 seemed just fine with factory fill brake fluid.

Same day same driver - I believe these were all from comparison tests these magazines did. I will have to confirm


Car & Driver around Grattan both cars had the same lap time 1:30.2

MT Gt500 was quicker around Laguna Seca - for 2 laps then faded.

Inside Line GT500 was quicker than ZL1 around Streets of Willow

Automobile Mag had the ZL1 quicker around Gingerman. those were same day same driver tests I believe. So out of those 4. 2 Edge to GT500, 1 to ZL1 1 to tie. But all mags picked the ZL1 bc it was easier to push harder, more liveable and they felt more well rounded.

The brake thing I could have sworn I read it some where. Can't seem to find it so will have to chalk that up to bad memory on my part and bad brakes on the GT500.


and good to have you back....it was getting boring on here with no debating

[MEDISIN]

Dear Shaffe,
Thank you for contributing to a productive discussion. If only all the Ford leg-humpers were as level-headed as you

Originally Posted by shaffe

Same day same driver - I believe these were all from comparison tests these magazines did. I will have to confirm

Car & Driver around Grattan both cars had the same lap time 1:30.2

Yes a tie. When Road&Track tested on the same track, the ZL1 turned a 1:27 vs the GT500 1:28.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Inside Line GT500 was quicker than ZL1 around Streets of Willow

I found forum comments about it although I can't find the original article. Is this what you were referring to? Do you have the source?

Edmunds at Streets of Willow (1.6 miles)
ZL1: 1:25.57
GT500: 1:24.92

Originally Posted by shaffe

Automobile Mag had the ZL1 quicker around Gingerman. those were same day same driver tests I believe.

Automobile Magazine - Gingerman Raceway (2.14 miles)
ZL1: 1:44.53
GT500: 1:45.21
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._shelby_gt500/

Originally Posted by shaffe

So out of those 4. 2 Edge to GT500, 1 to ZL1 1 to tie. But all mags picked the ZL1 bc it was easier to push harder, more liveable and they felt more well rounded.

By my count, we have 6 head-to-head comparisons.

Edmunds at Streets of Willow (1.6 miles)
ZL1: 1:25.57
GT500: 1:24.92

Car&Driver at Grattan Raceway (2.0 miles)
ZL1: 1:30.2
GT500: 1:30.2

Road&Track at Grattan Raceway (2.0 miles)
ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53

Automobile Magazine - Gingerman Raceway (2.14 miles)
ZL1: 1:44.53
GT500: 1:45.21

MotorTrend at Laguna Seca (2.2 miles)
ZL1: 1:39.18
GT500: 1:38.69*

Car&Driver at VIR (4.2 miles)
ZL1 2:57.50
GT500 3:00.60

GT500 wins 1 outright, 1 for the first two laps then fails.
The cars tie in the hands of C&D
ZL1 wins 3 outright.

The GT500 has far more power and less weight giving it a significant advantage on short tracks with long straights. The VIR time is really the most telling to me (my home track) as it quickly highlights weaknesses in a car. Ultimately, this is a silly comparison as the overall opinion of reviewers (and most enthusiasts) significantly favored the ZL1 as the car at home on the track.

Originally Posted by shaffe

and good to have you back....it was getting boring on here with no debating

It's been a busy summer! Looking forward to seeing some GT350 test results. Everything about the car and price look right so far.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Dear Shaffe,
Thank you for contributing to a productive discussion. If only all the Ford leg-humpers were as level-headed as you



Yes a tie. When Road&Track tested on the same track, the ZL1 turned a 1:27 vs the GT500 1:28.



I found forum comments about it although I can't find the original article. Is this what you were referring to? Do you have the source?

Edmunds at Streets of Willow (1.6 miles)
ZL1: 1:25.57
GT500: 1:24.92

that is what I am referring to, but the link to the article doesn't work anymore, forum comments is where I got it as well.

Automobile Magazine - Gingerman Raceway (2.14 miles)
ZL1: 1:44.53
GT500: 1:45.21
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._shelby_gt500/



By my count, we have 6 head-to-head comparisons.

Edmunds at Streets of Willow (1.6 miles)
ZL1: 1:25.57
GT500: 1:24.92

Car&Driver at Grattan Raceway (2.0 miles)
ZL1: 1:30.2
GT500: 1:30.2

Road&Track at Grattan Raceway (2.0 miles)
ZL1: 1:27.91
GT500: 1:28.53

Automobile Magazine - Gingerman Raceway (2.14 miles)
ZL1: 1:44.53
GT500: 1:45.21

MotorTrend at Laguna Seca (2.2 miles)
ZL1: 1:39.18
GT500: 1:38.69*

Car&Driver at VIR (4.2 miles)
ZL1 2:57.50
GT500 3:00.60

GT500 wins 1 outright, 1 for the first two laps then fails.
The cars tie in the hands of C&D
ZL1 wins 3 outright.

The GT500 has far more power and less weight giving it a significant advantage on short tracks with long straights. The VIR time is really the most telling to me (my home track) as it quickly highlights weaknesses in a car. Ultimately, this is a silly comparison as the overall opinion of reviewers (and most enthusiasts) significantly favored the ZL1 as the car at home on the track.




It's been a busy summer! Looking forward to seeing some GT350 test results. Everything about the car and price look right so far.

Yep, just wanted to shed light that there was more than just Laguna where the GT500 posted a better hero lap lol.

Every review picked the ZL1- even if in terms of just raw performance numbers the GT500 dominated it in the stat box - but as the reviews all showed that is not all that matters.

I am excited to see the reviews of the GT350 as well. Especially once Randy takes it around Laguna. That is what I am most looking forward too.

[pgviper]

Why is there so much discussion of the ZL1 vs GT500 in a GT350R vs Z/28 thread?

I think the GT350R will be quicker than the Z/28. Nothing wrong with that, it is a model year newer. GT350R has the weight advantage (in the right spots) and power advantage while most likely equalling the cornering and braking ability of the z/28. Should be a fun read no matter what.

[shaffe]

I believe it derailed around someone being confident about the GT350, then someone mentioned the GT500 brake fade issue and despite having more power than Zl1 only posted 1 better lap time, I corrected that with other better lap times.

Back on to GT350 lap times lol

[gen6waiter]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Why is there so much discussion of the ZL1 vs GT500 in a GT350R vs Z/28 thread?

I think the GT350R will be quicker than the Z/28. Nothing wrong with that, it is a model year newer. GT350R has the weight advantage (in the right spots) and power advantage while most likely equalling the cornering and braking ability of the z/28. Should be a fun read no matter what.

because someone lost his credibility vs the Hellcat so back to old arguments on ZL1 vs the GT500.

[gen6waiter]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I believe it derailed around someone being confident about the GT350, then someone mentioned the GT500 brake fade issue and despite having more power than Zl1 only posted 1 better lap time, I corrected that with other better lap times.

Back on to GT350 lap times lol

I recall two speedshop vendors here did a friendly Speedshop-X stock ZL1 vs Speedshop-Y stock GT500 track session where the GT500 simply ran away from the ZL1 and the ZL1 started having heatsoak issues.

The GT350 will be awesome..at least until the 6th Gen Z28.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Why is there so much discussion of the ZL1 vs GT500 in a GT350R vs Z/28 thread?

Thread derailed by RobWH in post #96

Originally Posted by pgviper

I think the GT350R will be quicker than the Z/28. Nothing wrong with that, it is a model year newer. GT350R has the weight advantage (in the right spots) and power advantage while most likely equalling the cornering and braking ability of the z/28. Should be a fun read no matter what.

It had better be, or epic fail for FoMoCo. Look at how much groaning occurred on the Mustang forums when the 2015 GT performance was compared to the SS and SRT.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I believe it derailed around someone being confident about the GT350, then someone mentioned the GT500 brake fade issue and despite having more power than Zl1 only posted 1 better lap time, I corrected that with other better lap times.

ONE other better lap time. The ZL1 still wins 3-2-1 which is remarkable for a heavier, lower-powered, less expensive car. More importantly we saw in the various articles the limitations of the GT500 on the track. Hopefully, 3 years later, Ford has finally given us a worthy ZL1, Z/28 competitor.

[shaffe]

And hopefully we shall see in the coming weeks!