[pdoherty972]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The '15s were. But there's been no talk about limited production. They will be low volume like the ZL1 and Z/28 were.

Ok but that was my point - low volume vehicle. So why, in some people's minds, is that the correct comparison for the SS (1SS or 2SS) when they are the regular cars available in full volume? The correct comparison is GT/GTPP vs SS (any form).

[joemosfet]

Is there such thing as an "incorrect" comparison? Pretty sure you can compare it to whatever you want. Say I have $50K to spend. Give me a list of fast cars under $50K, and I can compare them all.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by pdoherty972

Ok but that was my point - low volume vehicle. So why, in some people's minds, is that the correct comparison for the SS (1SS or 2SS) when they are the regular cars available in full volume? The correct comparison is GT/GTPP vs SS (any form).

Oh I agree. But there are some odd ball cross shoppers out there with only a price point in mind. I'm sure salesman love them.

Originally Posted by joemosfet

Is there such thing as an "incorrect" comparison? Pretty sure you can compare it to whatever you want. Say I have $50K to spend. Give me a list of fast cars under $50K, and I can compare them all.

Think you can look at it this way. If you don't find the automotive media doing a direct comparison with the models you are considering, you are not a typical shopper. You will not find a Hellcat in a head to head with a GT350 (even though you can price it to match the Hellcat price), so why should it be considered normal to compare a GT350 with no options to a 2SS with every option box ticked.

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You will not find a Hellcat in a head to head with a GT350 (even though you can price it to match the Hellcat price),

Why not? I could certainly see a couple of enthusiasts, one owning a hellcat, the other a GT350, going head to head on both a drag strip and a road track. One might completely stomp the other, but that doesn't mean they're not allowed to compete.

Also, when it comes to "The fastest current offerings by Detroit's big 3" are there any other vehicles to compare?

Originally Posted by SuperSound

so why should it be considered normal to compare a GT350 with no options to a 2SS with every option box ticked.

Well, if many people make the comparison, wouldn't that make it normal?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

Why not? I could certainly see a couple of enthusiasts, one owning a hellcat, the other a GT350, going head to head on both a drag strip and a road track. One might completely stomp the other, but that doesn't mean they're not allowed to compete.

Also, when it comes to "The fastest current offerings by Detroit's big 3" are there any other vehicles to compare?


Well, if many people make the comparison, wouldn't that make it normal?

Again I'll ask, when have you seen this in the automotive media? I'm not saying people don't, but I can guarantee if there were a lot of people cross shopping odd combos of these cars(like track GT350, all around base SS, strip only Hellcat) based solely on price...the media would have a comparison. There simply isn't.

And currently the fastest of the big 3 is actually 2; Hellcat and ZL1 since both are available for sale right now. Doubt there is a '14 GT500 out there still new. Anyone looking for the fastest of the big 3 but would then throw a GT350 in the comparison simply because it is the fastest Ford has for sale right now is an impulse buyer.

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Again I'll ask, when have you seen this in the automotive media?

Oh, apologies, I didn't realize you were specifically referring to media comparisons. (Because, unless some magazine editor does it, it isn't a "correct" comparison?) That being said, I've seen plenty of "strange" comparisons from auto rags, so don't count your chickens before they roll off the production line.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And currently the fastest of the big 3 is actually 2; Hellcat and ZL1 since both are available for sale right now.

Is ordering banks for 2015 still open? I do know that all '15 production will stop at the end of November, but I digress. My point still stands, it doesn't take a lot of mental work to change my statement to "The fastest 2016 offerings by Detroit's big 3" but I suppose that doesn't suit your narrative, eh?

[pdoherty972]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

There's only a $1500 price difference between similar equipped mustang and Camaro. On the top end, there pretty much even. So I don't know where your getting this huge price difference. The base stang doesn't even stand a chance in any category against the 1ss.

I know - hilarious, isn't it? ;-)

Like I said you can say the 2SS shouldn't cost as much as it does, but GT vs SS is the comparison. If for no other reason than the special Camaro models that will be based on it will be ones to compare sgainst the Gt350 and GT500. Said another way; if you have to resort to comparing the SS against the limited-run GT350 to have a fair fight, what will you do when the ZL1 or Z-28 come out?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

Oh, apologies, I didn't realize you were specifically referring to media comparisons. (Because, unless some magazine editor does it, it isn't a "correct" comparison?) That being said, I've seen plenty of "strange" comparisons from auto rags, so don't count your chickens before they roll off the production line.



Is ordering banks for 2015 still open? I do know that all '15 production will stop at the end of November, but I digress. My point still stands, it doesn't take a lot of mental work to change my statement to "The fastest 2016 offerings by Detroit's big 3" but I suppose that doesn't suit your narrative, eh?

Never said anything about a "correct comparison", just a typical one. The media caters to the typical. Please share a comparison of ZL1 to GT, Hellcat to Z/28, GT500 to SS, or RT to Boss LS. It's nonsense right? But has someone had those kinds of crazy choices on their list, without a doubt. Doesn't make it typical.

Not sure when ZL1 orders stop, probably already have but you can definitely find them on dealer lots, same can't be said for the competition at the price point.

Changing to 2016 doesn't make a difference, other than the Hellcat will be the only top dog. But then in 6 months the GT500 and new ZL1 could be unveiled which will highlight the fact that anyone who buys GT350 simply because it's the fastest available Mustang, will end up regretting it. Buy the GT350 because you want to track it, because you like the powerplant, or you think it's a good investment. Putting it on your list because you want the best available under a certain price at a certain point in time is a terrible decision in the long run.

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Never said anything about a "correct comparison", just a typical one.

Derp, your right that was somebody else, whoops! Apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (a pet peeve of mine).

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The media caters to the typical. Please share a comparison of ZL1 to GT, Hellcat to Z/28, GT500 to SS, or RT to Boss LS. It's nonsense right?

I.... I don't think its nonsensical, I think those are all great cars, I wouldn't mind seeing each one in my garage. And, I'm not sure if you're making an example or actually want me to provide examples? I mean, google will return lots of results for each of those comparisons. (Hellcat vs z28, for instance)

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Changing to 2016 doesn't make a difference ... Putting it on your list because you want the best available under a certain price at a certain point in time is a terrible decision in the long run.

Good point. However, it does make a difference to the person who wants "The fastest 2016 offerings by Detroit's big 3." It may be a terrible decision for your, or for the guy who "wants the fastest under price point" but, for somebody wanting something made in 2016, (say maybe a 16th birthday, or needs a car now, or trades in for a new car every year, etc.), who is to say what is or isn't a terrible decision for him. You know, there are a lot of say buying a new car is a terrible decision, or that spending so much is a terrible decision, etc.

As for what is or isn't typical, I can't say, I haven't done the research as to why people buy the things they buy. But, take a look at the cross-shopping threads, and you'll see that the typical comparison isn't typical at all.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

Derp, your right that was somebody else, whoops! Apologies, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (a pet peeve of mine).



I.... I don't think its nonsensical, I think those are all great cars, I wouldn't mind seeing each one in my garage. And, I'm not sure if you're making an example or actually want me to provide examples? I mean, google will return lots of results for each of those comparisons. (Hellcat vs z28, for instance)




Good point. However, it does make a difference to the person who wants "The fastest 2016 offerings by Detroit's big 3." It may be a terrible decision for your, or for the guy who "wants the fastest under price point" but, for somebody wanting something made in 2016, (say maybe a 16th birthday, or needs a car now, or trades in for a new car every year, etc.), who is to say what is or isn't a terrible decision for him. You know, there are a lot of say buying a new car is a terrible decision, or that spending so much is a terrible decision, etc.

As for what is or isn't typical, I can't say, I haven't done the research as to why people buy the things they buy. But, take a look at the cross-shopping threads, and you'll see that the typical comparison isn't typical at all.

All good. I knew you meant the other poster.

I guess I should approach it like this, some cross shopping these diverse choices in car needs guidance in understanding what he likes and what is a must have. Some people on here reject the comparisons out right because the cars are different classes or built for entirely different purpose. I see the logic in this but then that's how I make decisions. But like you said, not everyone is like me or them. That being said, I think the best thing to do is list the priorities and the nice to haves. Let's take the example of this thread, 2SS vs GT350 (assuming base no option since price keeps being brought up).

If handling is a priority because you track the car, these cars are fairly close. The GT350 needs the Track Pack to up the game into the C7 Z51 territory. It's hard to judge how good the GT350 without the track is because I can bet you will never see one in an instrumented media review. I think we can assume it will be better than a GTPP which will put it in 6th gen SS territory.

In creature comforts, the 2SS gets it by a long shot. The 2SS is fully loaded and the base GT350 is more like a Mustang GT non Premium. Not terrible but missing a load of things not worth listing here.

Looks are subjective. I think both look awesome so this is a wild card.

Fuel economy. Some might laugh but regardless it is a factor. The GT350 is a gas guzzler and has the tax to show it. The 2SS will be a good deal better even at 5th gen ratings.

Straight line performance. Bit of a toss up here. If you get the A8 2SS it is just as fast as a GT350 (not sure if MT used a TP one and if it would make a difference in times). M6 2SS won't likely be as quick. The 2SS A8 will be more consistent for sure. I think both GT350 and 2SS have the ability to break into the 11s under perfect conditions and drivers.

Value and Price. I think the GT350 will see better resale value in the long run, but a base GT350 could add some extra uncertainty. Could make it rarer and help sell it or could hurt resale. Price will be in the 2SS market. You have to add NPP, Auto, Sunroof, and some wheel/interior options to get the price even close to the GT350. Then you are more likely to pay close to MSRP or higher on a GT350 than a 2SS, especially after the initial new order rush.

Those are the broad categories to me. And you can see it is close. People have to start picking what really matters and personal taste. To me the wins of the creature comforts, fuel economy, lower price and comparable performance make the 2SS the win. But that's me of course.

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I guess I should approach it like this, some cross shopping these diverse choices in car needs guidance in understanding what he likes and what is a must have. Some people on here reject the comparisons out right because the cars are different classes or built for entirely different purpose. I see the logic in this but then that's how I make decisions. But like you said, not everyone is like me or them. That being said, I think the best thing to do is list the priorities and the nice to haves. Let's take the example of this thread, 2SS vs GT350 (assuming base no option since price keeps being brought up).

If handling is a priority because you track the car, these cars are fairly close. The GT350 needs the Track Pack to up the game into the C7 Z51 territory. It's hard to judge how good the GT350 without the track is because I can bet you will never see one in an instrumented media review. I think we can assume it will be better than a GTPP which will put it in 6th gen SS territory.

In creature comforts, the 2SS gets it by a long shot. The 2SS is fully loaded and the base GT350 is more like a Mustang GT non Premium. Not terrible but missing a load of things not worth listing here.

Looks are subjective. I think both look awesome so this is a wild card.

Fuel economy. Some might laugh but regardless it is a factor. The GT350 is a gas guzzler and has the tax to show it. The 2SS will be a good deal better even at 5th gen ratings.

Straight line performance. Bit of a toss up here. If you get the A8 2SS it is just as fast as a GT350 (not sure if MT used a TP one and if it would make a difference in times). M6 2SS won't likely be as quick. The 2SS A8 will be more consistent for sure. I think both GT350 and 2SS have the ability to break into the 11s under perfect conditions and drivers.

Value and Price. I think the GT350 will see better resale value in the long run, but a base GT350 could add some extra uncertainty. Could make it rarer and help sell it or could hurt resale. Price will be in the 2SS market. You have to add NPP, Auto, Sunroof, and some wheel/interior options to get the price even close to the GT350. Then you are more likely to pay close to MSRP or higher on a GT350 than a 2SS, especially after the initial new order rush.

Those are the broad categories to me. And you can see it is close. People have to start picking what really matters and personal taste. To me the wins of the creature comforts, fuel economy, lower price and comparable performance make the 2SS the win. But that's me of course.

A lot of folks say A is better than B because of C and leave it at that.

But I think you nailed it on the head - this is the best way to do a fair comparison.

Comparing various aspects of the vehicles that matter to you, adding them up and then coming to a decision. (I think it goes to show that any vehicle can be inserted here and have its pros and cons compared to any other vehicle, and is the "fair" way to do a comparison.) You can come to a decision of which is better, but not as a blanket statement, but as a conclusion of the desires, needs, and personal preferences. Because of this, (save for factual errors) nobody can tell you you're wrong.

Now, for me, there is one big big factor that makes me biased to the Camaro most: it has sentimental value. My dad had two when I was growing up, and I've always dreamed to have one since then. Well, I currently do, but previously I had a 2011 Charger, full of Creature comforts, luxury features that were sorely missing from my 5th gen Camaro. So for me, no other car is in consideration, except for a 6th gen ZL1. Unfortunatley, since such thing doesn't exist, I have to get the fastest that does. At least until 2017, right?

BTW, thank you. This type of conversation is what I like to see in VS threads. The mudslinging and namecalling that VS threads devolve to over on the Mustang side of things is nauseating to read. Looking for insight like this over on the M6G forums is like digging through crap to find corn. Sure you're bound to find a kernel every now and then, but you'll be covered in crap and smell like ѕhit.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

A lot of folks say A is better than B because of C and leave it at that.

But I think you nailed it on the head - this is the best way to do a fair comparison.

Comparing various aspects of the vehicles that matter to you, adding them up and then coming to a decision. (I think it goes to show that any vehicle can be inserted here and have its pros and cons compared to any other vehicle, and is the "fair" way to do a comparison.) You can come to a decision of which is better, but not as a blanket statement, but as a conclusion of the desires, needs, and personal preferences. Because of this, (save for factual errors) nobody can tell you you're wrong.

Now, for me, there is one big big factor that makes me biased to the Camaro most: it has sentimental value. My dad had two when I was growing up, and I've always dreamed to have one since then. Well, I currently do, but previously I had a 2011 Charger, full of Creature comforts, luxury features that were sorely missing from my 5th gen Camaro. So for me, no other car is in consideration, except for a 6th gen ZL1. Unfortunatley, since such thing doesn't exist, I have to get the fastest that does. At least until 2017, right?

BTW, thank you. This type of conversation is what I like to see in VS threads. The mudslinging and namecalling that VS threads devolve to over on the Mustang side of things is nauseating to read. Looking for insight like this over on the M6G forums is like digging through crap to find corn. Sure you're bound to find a kernel every now and then, but you'll be covered in crap and smell like ѕhit.

Exactly. The media typically goes after the logical comparisons because they are the most straight forward to compare. Things like sentimental value, financial situation, even looks are more of a personal comparison. I think people who post these kinds of threads need to be honest that they are looking to understand the cost/benefit of each car. Not that the cars should be compared simply because of price. More like I have this budget and am looking to get the most car I can, help me decide. I'm sure it won't stop the mudslinging that always happens, but will at least let some people know how to reply.

Glad I could help. Writing that out helped me understand my choice for next car too.

[SpeedIsLife]

M6G has lots of rabid fanboys, but there are more than a few pro-Chevy trolls over there that expressly go there to stir them up and then giggle.

From what I've seen there have been more than a few previously level headed Mustang guys get turned fanatical due to people coming there and starting fights.

Sure there are those who are "born fanatics", we know who they are.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

M6G has lots of rabid fanboys, but there are more than a few pro-Chevy trolls over there that expressly go there to stir them up and then giggle.

From what I've seen there have been more than a few previously level headed Mustang guys get turned fanatical due to people coming there and starting fights.

Sure there are those who are "born fanatics", we know who they are.

To me anyone who can be "fanaticized" (not a word I'm sure lol) that easily, probably already was one. They just now have an excuse to show it. You are who you are when the pressure is on, not when everything is civil. That's why anyone who starts personal attacks after being challenged obviously has self confidence issues. Same to me as the fanboy responses.