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Old 01-27-2018, 08:36 AM   #1
wjones14

 
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Motor Trend has trouble doing burnouts with 1LE

Just got the print issue with the Head 2 Head matchup between the 1LE and Mustang GT PP1. They broke the comparison down to two broad areas:

- the numbers
- the "cowboy science"

where the first is obvious, but the latter is about out on the street, where things like noise, burnouts, and "non-optimized drag racing" are considered.

For noise, they liked the Mustang's exhaust better, though they did say that Chevy has room for improvement since the C7.R Corvettes at LeMans are the best-sounding cars at the race.

When it came to burnouts, they said the Ford "smoked the Chevy." The reason is, after one or two decent burnouts, the Goodyears got hot to where they "grip up" and even 455 lb-ft of twist has trouble breaking them loose.

Jonny Lieberman did point out that in his experience, no other car comes close to the ZL1 when it comes to burnouts, and that car does it on the same tires. So he reasons that the extra 195 lb-ft is quite necessary if smoky burnouts are your goal.

All the above is right out of the issue, almost word-for-word. My thoughts - maybe they were trying to give the Mustang a consolation victory since the objective numbers show a decisive Chevy win?

But I bring up the topic of burnouts because I am actually cross-shopping the 2SS 1LE against the Mustang GT PP2 right now, after a 3-year experiment with a BMW. I need to get back to a non-turbo V8 with a real LSD after owning three Mustang GTs and two 2nd gen and one 3rd gen Z28s.

And to be honest, I don't really care about frying the tires with smoky burnouts. In the 10 years of owning my '05 Mustang GT, I never actually did a real 1st gear standing start burnout. But, I absolutely loved quick shifting into 2nd and 3rd and breaking the tires loose. Even with lifting, I could easily lay down twin strips 20 feet or more from a quick 1-2 shift, with Traction Control on.

(BTW, the BMW M235i refuses to bark the tires on a 1-2 shift, even with the nannies off - there's just too much turbo lag and clutch delay valve - and that's perhaps the most frustrating thing about my BMW probably.)

So I'm going to assume that the MT writers are telling the truth, and burnouts are much easier in the Mustang because it has so much less grip. My question to 1LE owners:

Is it easy to break the rear tires loose on hard 1-2 and 2-3 shifts? And how easy is it to break the tires loose around a low-speed (20 mph or so) turn when you just punch the throttle in 2nd gear? In other words, how easy is to be a Hooligan, not counting old fashioned 1st gear burnouts?
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:09 AM   #2
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The tires are wide and sticky..... I can get it to slip a little going into second. It would have to be very cold to get any slip into third on the street. The no lift shift feature times the shift to avoid upsetting the car which includes wheel spin.

Now, with snow tires it will spin and slip all the way to the top of third gear!

I drove a Mustang performance pack for almost 3 years. I put nearly 60k on it daily driving and had it on the racetrack as well. It was an impressive car. It had a lot of body movement that you don't get with the 1LE. This body movement gave me the sensation of going faster but the 1LE is faster in every way.
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:12 AM   #3
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I think its good if it getts good enough grip to not spin after a quick burnout. That means everything is doing its job. No one ever won any type of race by spinning their tires. Well, i guess except for drifting which isnt really a race.
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:47 AM   #4
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The 1LE is a track package so it aims for more traction which is beneficial on corner exit. If you want less grip, get an SS without 1LE.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:38 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by motorhead View Post
I think its good if it getts good enough grip to not spin after a quick burnout. That means everything is doing its job. No one ever won any type of race by spinning their tires. Well, i guess except for drifting which isnt really a race.
Agreed 100% that grip is superior to wheelspin when it comes to winning races. MT agreed as well, saying "this is actually good news for the 1LE."

My BMW and '05 Mustang had roughly equal power output and equal weight, but the BMW has a lot more grip due to better chassis, tires, and electronic aids. Consequently, when I took the cars to Lime Rock, the BMW laid down laps 3 seconds quicker than the Mustang with me driving both cars.

But to elaborate on my point, after 3 years, I've found that the BMW is simply not as much FUN as the Mustang was. Not only is the M235i frustrating in that it's absurdly difficult to get a chirp from the tires on a 1-2 shift, but that hard shift is actually jerky, because the car hesitates ever-so-slightly and loses all forward momentum until the turbo spools back up. The Mustang was a wild ride all the time, almost out of control, and being on the edge of traction like that was just fun.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the fun factor with the 1LE will be night and day compared to the M235i. So maybe I'm not really sure what I'm looking for here...
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
My BMW and '05 Mustang had roughly equal power output and equal weight, but the BMW has a lot more grip due to better chassis, tires, and electronic aids. Consequently, when I took the cars to Lime Rock, the BMW laid down laps 3 seconds quicker than the Mustang with me driving both cars.
BMW is notorious for advertising the WHP/WTQ and not the crank. Seeing N55 dyno runs in the ~290-something ranges in stock configuration, compare that with other cars "rated" for around 300hp kicking out more like 260 and the 2005 mustang dynos closer to 270hp according to what I'm seeing. Even more than that, the BMW turbo setups are capable of full torque from around 1500-1700 and up to around max rpm. With a torque curve like that, it's going to smash the old low-compression V8 in the 2005 mustang, every time you upshift you'd be making a lot more torque in the BMW. 0-60 I could take those 2005 Mustangs in my WRX even. Throw the DCT in the BMW and it's just going to kill the solid rear axle mustang around a track.

I didn't go with the 235/M2 because the dealer markups around here are just crazy and I didn't want to be further disconnected from driving, they somehow got their M2s well up past 70K and for the price, it's just ridiculous IMO, more stripped down than an M4 as far as interior/features and such. I could afford it or the M4, but I feel like I'm just burning cash for no reason, especially when the 1LE can best an M4 GTS costing more than 3x more while not riding like a jackhammer like the GTS.

Like I said in the other post, I have a few more miles now on the car, back in storage this week due to some snow and low temps, but it is seriously fun to drive with the manual transmission and exhaust. My other concern with the M2/4 would be while I could go faster than in my previous car, it would still be very "disconnected" to the driving experience. BMW steering was awful and the suspension was fairly poor, although I didn't have an M4, I did opt for the M-sport brakes with Adaptive suspension and even though it was a fairly recent 4-series, BMW's active/adaptive suspension is very crude by GM magnetic ride standards. Brakes felt very "wooden" too, despite being upsized with monoblock calipers front and rear. That may have been due to the electric nannies that were inherently hooked to the braking with adaptive cruise control, but it just wasn't great feedback compared to my last few cars before.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:29 PM   #7
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Couldn't you just turn off all the nannies and roast/smoke/drift to your hearts desire? Like what was said/agreed upon in the above, with the nannies on you aren't going to get that "on the edge", "drift at a moments notice", "big smoky burnout" which is by design, but if you disable all of those you can have free reign to do what you desire and punish any unsuspecting asphalt along the way lol
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjones14 View Post
Agreed 100% that grip is superior to wheelspin when it comes to winning races. MT agreed as well, saying "this is actually good news for the 1LE."

My BMW and '05 Mustang had roughly equal power output and equal weight, but the BMW has a lot more grip due to better chassis, tires, and electronic aids. Consequently, when I took the cars to Lime Rock, the BMW laid down laps 3 seconds quicker than the Mustang with me driving both cars.

But to elaborate on my point, after 3 years, I've found that the BMW is simply not as much FUN as the Mustang was. Not only is the M235i frustrating in that it's absurdly difficult to get a chirp from the tires on a 1-2 shift, but that hard shift is actually jerky, because the car hesitates ever-so-slightly and loses all forward momentum until the turbo spools back up. The Mustang was a wild ride all the time, almost out of control, and being on the edge of traction like that was just fun.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the fun factor with the 1LE will be night and day compared to the M235i. So maybe I'm not really sure what I'm looking for here...
Silly questions to ask you, but having owned an M235i... (http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/...d.php?t=133359)

1). Have you tuned the car at all?

2). Why not delete the clutch delay valve?

I tuned mine with the BMS intake and piggyback. It had no issues at all with lighting up the rear tires and it kept up with/beat my friends DCT e92 M3 while spinning them through the first two gears.

Edit: Post 666 yikes

Last edited by F1FTY; 01-27-2018 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:34 PM   #9
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There is a small amount of talent required to be “good” at doing a burnout. Surely not every driver or magazine editor has mastered the clutch side step, or wrist flick to initiate some smokey tire spin....even in a car with good tires.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:55 PM   #10
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Hell, look at the in-depth reviews of the M4 GTS, so many compromises for daily driving, blank buttons everywhere, harsh ride, loop-handles, and the 1LE takes it on the track. This is my beef with BMW, you have to move up so far in their range to get comparable performance, and then you have to make so many sacrifices to get there at a premium price, it just leaves me totally disgusted. Obviously part of the premium is supposed to be the luxury you get with these cars, but the other part was supposed to be you spend more money and you get more performance.
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Old 01-27-2018, 01:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Hell, look at the in-depth reviews of the M4 GTS, so many compromises for daily driving, blank buttons everywhere, harsh ride, loop-handles, and the 1LE takes it on the track. This is my beef with BMW, you have to move up so far in their range to get comparable performance, and then you have to make so many sacrifices to get there at a premium price, it just leaves me totally disgusted. Obviously part of the premium is supposed to be the luxury you get with these cars, but the other part was supposed to be you spend more money and you get more performance.
Sat in a new M4 at the dealership while my wife's car was in for service.

Can honestly say the following for the M4 with a price point of $86,000:

-Seats are much nicer than the SS/1LE seats in terms of materials and looks. Recaros grip better.

-Door panels are definitely a big step up in materials and layout.

-Dash is complicated with buttons for everything, along with the center tunnel/console area.

-Steering wheel isn't any nicer than the Camaro.

-Visibility is better at the C pillar, but that's every car vs. the Camaro.

-Trunk opening is wider and lower but the height is more restrictive if that makes sense. Not a deep trunk.

-Car feels larger overall (I'd have to look up the dimensions, it should be the same as the Camaro).

-Materials and fit and finish were a little bit nicer overall, but it didn't make the Camaro feel downmarket at all compared to my 2SS. It didn't have some features the Camaro has (heated steering, HUD, larger infotainment screen, same amount of USB ports in same hard to reach area).

BMW just feels like a dying brand these days when it comes to performance cars. The M4 almost felt forced, like they did it because they had to rather than because they wanted to.
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Old 01-27-2018, 01:43 PM   #12
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Why are we even discussing "2nd and 3rd gear bark, laying down strips"??? You buy a 1LE to be able to use the power through traction and actually achieve forward propulsion. It takes engeneering to accomplish that. For me that was one of the primary reasons I bought my 1LE. And if you just want to waste your tires away in place, just double click you TC button in sport/track mode and peel away...
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:23 PM   #13
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Why are we even discussing "2nd and 3rd gear bark, laying down strips"??? You buy a 1LE to be able to use the power through traction and actually achieve forward propulsion. It takes engeneering to accomplish that. For me that was one of the primary reasons I bought my 1LE. And if you just want to waste your tires away in place, just double click you TC button in sport/track mode and peel away...
Or buy a Hellcat. That is the best thing it does very well. Lol.
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Old 01-27-2018, 03:49 PM   #14
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Or buy a Hellcat. That is the best thing it does very well. Lol.
+1. You got it!
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