E38 pcm EGR wideband hookup

[B-_-RAD]

Has anyone wired their wideband into the egr pin (47) I believe, and been able to log it through hptuners?

[B-_-RAD]

Bump, anyone?

[Iam Broke]

Older LS1 trick, haven't heard of it being available on an LS3/L99. No EGR system. You could however use the A/C pressure input I suppose short term. Don't know the pinout, sorry. You could ask in the HPtuners Gen 4 V8 section.

[Frost]

You don't really want to go this route anyway...

Besides frame-delay in the logs (that you have to RECOGNIZE and be able to work with or you will very quickly cause more grief than good) being awful, you can't really share files with AFR to the web for others to see or be able to help with since none of them will be defining their own A/C system as a virtual AFR sender as you would have to.

It's hard to explain this without going into depth on both, but it's an issue and it's why if you are *EVER* going to actually tune your own car vs. load remote cals that you should buy the Pro version of HPTuner's vs. the Standard. Saving that $150 up front on the STD bites you in @ss for most cars with no native wideband.

[trollos]

Hey there. I am new to the forum and oddly enough came here looking to answer the same question. I stumbled upon the schematics on this page, and wonder why it wouldn't work?

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ht=volt+source

Frost can you provide some additional insight on frame delay and why this doesn't work well?

My buddy uses this method to log/tune his turboed 01 WS6 x275 car and it works well for him. He uses the A/C pressure input as a 5v reference, which shows in the schematic in the link above on our cars.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by trollos

Hey there. I am new to the forum and oddly enough came here looking to answer the same question. I stumbled upon the schematics on this page, and wonder why it wouldn't work?

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ht=volt+source

Frost can you provide some additional insight on frame delay and why this doesn't work well?

My buddy uses this method to log/tune his turboed 01 WS6 x275 car and it works well for him. He uses the A/C pressure input as a 5v reference, which shows in the schematic in the link above on our cars.

It's bad for him too; trust me I have looked at it many times....

To understand why frame delay can introduce errors, you have to understand that most new tuners are doing work because some online guide is telling them to, not because they know they need to. Here's what happens... When logging, we use a custom PID that calculates AFR% error per cell. Now, you stomp the gas and it goes from commanding 14.6ish:1 to commanding (let's say this is FI) 11.5:1. Even with the EIO, there is a frame or two where you command 11.5:1 and the mixture is still at 14.7:1 and the % error is recorded as 25-28% or something crazy like that. Now, when you add a second controller and it's signal processing and hand-off time to the EIO, that frame lag GROWS. Now, every time you go WOT, you are logging a ton of false error into your histo's because of this transition time. The online guides will have you copying and pasting huge chunks to "correct" things and if not extremely careful, that trash ends up being auto-pasted back as legit values. If you go WOT 3 times and enter heavy fueling at 2-3 different points, now ALL of your data down low is garbage because of the error you have built in and spread through several cells.

It's only $150 bucks. If you bought the 'wrong' version up front, just eBay it and correct the mistake. The PRO version adds stand-alone logging too, and it will make and hold several logs for later review. It's the way to go.

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by Frost

It's bad for him too; trust me I have looked at it many times....

To understand why frame delay can introduce errors, you have to understand that most new tuners are doing work because some online guide is telling them to, not because they know they need to. Here's what happens... When logging, we use a custom PID that calculates AFR% error per cell. Now, you stomp the gas and it goes from commanding 14.6ish:1 to commanding (let's say this is FI) 11.5:1. Even with the EIO, there is a frame or two where you command 11.5:1 and the mixture is still at 14.7:1 and the % error is recorded as 25-28% or something crazy like that. Now, when you add a second controller and it's signal processing and hand-off time to the EIO, that frame lag GROWS. Now, every time you go WOT, you are logging a ton of false error into your histo's because of this transition time. The online guides will have you copying and pasting huge chunks to "correct" things and if not extremely careful, that trash ends up being auto-pasted back as legit values. If you go WOT 3 times and enter heavy fueling at 2-3 different points, now ALL of your data down low is garbage because of the error you have built in and spread through several cells.

It's only $150 bucks. If you bought the 'wrong' version up front, just eBay it and correct the mistake. The PRO version adds stand-alone logging too, and it will make and hold several logs for later review. It's the way to go.

I am certainly a beginner at this, so don't take this as argumentative. Your explanation still doesn't completely make sense to me. I thought the frame delay comes from the time it takes the gas to reach the sensor? From what I have gathered (which could easily be misunderstood on my part), the only difference between taking over A/C pressure and using EIO is the frame resolution. The ECM will only give 1 sample per frame, whereas the EIO will give several averaged together.

I see what you're saying, but false data has been something I have had to look for at all times even using trims.

[Frost]

Frame delay comes from more than one source. It's another reason to tune OL and use a GOOD wideband in a front bung. That's the best you can do there. The issue you can't do much with when going this route is that you are handing a raw voltage off to the engine controller which is then processing that input and handing it back off as a digital voltage reference in PID form.

Fine tuning with trims is fine, but once you are able to see the dramatic difference in accuracy and speed that a good wideband makes, that's all you would want to do with them (fine tuning I mean).

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by Frost

Frame delay comes from more than one source. It's another reason to tune OL and use a GOOD wideband in a front bung. That's the best you can do there. The issue you can't do much with when going this route is that you are handing a raw voltage off to the engine controller which is then processing that input and handing it back off as a digital voltage reference in PID form.

Fine tuning with trims is fine, but once you are able to see the dramatic difference in accuracy and speed that a good wideband makes, that's all you would want to do with them (fine tuning I mean).

I have the UEGO wideband. I'm not sure if that would be considered a good one or mediocre. I already agree on the trims. I chose to do it that way first just because I haven't done the wiring for wideband input yet. After all the driving around doing LTFT first, then STFT... it was obvious that using AFR % would be much faster. I went through almost 2 tanks of gas tuning by trims.

I'm still not sure I'm convinced that the false data is reason enough to say the non-EIO wideband input method is bad, but I'm glad you said something about it. At least now I'll be paying attention.

[B-_-RAD]

Thanks for the input, I went ahead and purchased the pro, being a beginner I will need to be able to show logs I am sure. The reason I was looking at doing it this way was due to the fact you can pick up standard for ~$350 vs pro at $650. I decided to just go with pro and save myself the hassle though.

[thahemp]

Standard is $499. Good for you though. It was hard to spend the money, but I'm really glad I did now. The thought of never paying for tuning again is pretty comforting.

[B-_-RAD]

I was referencing used standard prices fwiw.

[kpwalls06]

So Frost, you suggest starting with a wideband, logging it to the pro version of HPT, and tuning in OL? What would you call a good wideband? I've been looking at the AEM UEGO, but they also have a wideband/failsafe that has 0-5V output.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by kpwalls06

So Frost, you suggest starting with a wideband, logging it to the pro version of HPT, and tuning in OL? What would you call a good wideband? I've been looking at the AEM UEGO, but they also have a wideband/failsafe that has 0-5V output.

The AEM unit is the bottom of the barrel for consumer widebands. The AFX has the internal "guts" (controller) of a notably more expensive (and more accurate) unit, has free-air cal to extend useful sensor life (the AEM wanders off; it's cal tied to it's laser etched cal-resistor from the factory that is unchanging, unlike the sensor), and will run (and include if you get it from the right place) the NGK sensor instead of the Bosch cheapie that other units use. The NGK has a fixed 0-5VDC output for hooking up to your HPTuner's cable.