Clutch Slipper

[0stones0]

Originally Posted by oldman14ss

acammer, how do i delete the clutch switch. i hate that thing. nobody drives but me. ive driven sticks so long that everytime i get in i check the stick for neutral even before the keys go in. old school never had it. i had a 4th gen i got rid of the switch. can i just jump it out? why is can bus a factor third wire just a monitor? did you use something like hp tuners? i have the service manuals for my car. i dont see how it would effect can bus operations. please advise. that v6 link was just opinions no real knowledge thanks in advance. the oldman.... p.s. ive been wanting to do this since i bought the car 5 years ago

I just put up the only thread I found, just to give a heads up on possible issues trying to disable it. Just in case anyone doesn’t want a new problem.
But, I wouldn’t mind knowing, as well, how to take it out of the system. We’re all big boys that can take the responsibility for what we do to our cars.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by George-CZ

I don't have a problem with it and I will tell my girlfriend so she knows what has changed and it will be fine.


And it also works via the HP Tuner, if I understood correctly..?

Originally Posted by oldman14ss

acammer, how do i delete the clutch switch. i hate that thing. nobody drives but me. ive driven sticks so long that everytime i get in i check the stick for neutral even before the keys go in. old school never had it. i had a 4th gen i got rid of the switch. can i just jump it out? why is can bus a factor third wire just a monitor? did you use something like hp tuners? i have the service manuals for my car. i dont see how it would effect can bus operations. please advise. that v6 link was just opinions no real knowledge thanks in advance. the oldman.... p.s. ive been wanting to do this since i bought the car 5 years ago

The clutch "switch" delete is done via HPTuners. I put switch in quotes because the 5th gen Camaro doesn't have a switch, it actually has a position sensor that reads the travel of the clutch. You don't want to jumper it out or remove it, the ECM looks for signals from that sensor for a few different reasons. It's easy to defeat in HPTuners using the Trans > Clutch Position Sensor > Clutch Interlock parameter.

[George-CZ]

Originally Posted by acammer

The clutch "switch" delete is done via HPTuners. I put switch in quotes because the 5th gen Camaro doesn't have a switch, it actually has a position sensor that reads the travel of the clutch. You don't want to jumper it out or remove it, the ECM looks for signals from that sensor for a few different reasons. It's easy to defeat in HPTuners using the Trans > Clutch Position Sensor > Clutch Interlock parameter.

Dude.... I love this forum!!!

So I have to put the Clutch Interlock to disabled?
Only Intrelock...?

Clutch Position Sensor remains Enabled and
Clutch switch Disable.


Only I Disabled Clutch Interlock...?

[Big Biscuits]

Originally Posted by George-CZ

Dude.... I love this forum!!!

So I have to put the Clutch Interlock to disabled?
Only Intrelock...?

Clutch Position Sensor remains Enabled and
Clutch switch Disable.


Only I Disabled Clutch Interlock...?

Correct.

[George-CZ]

Originally Posted by Big Biscuits

Correct.

[Big Biscuits]

Originally Posted by dreksnot

I installed the BangShift Billy clutch slipper with the LPE CTAP as the pedal position reader of the OEM pedal sensor. The concept is good. I don't think I'm getting a timely position signal from the OEM clutch switch so I think I'm going to have to install a mechanical switch (somehow) for the pedal and ditch the CTAP.

Me, being me, added to the complexity and installed a delay timing circuit to incorporate into the timing of the master switch holding and releasing the clutch.

What the clutch slipper is:
It is a manifold with a solenoid installed inline between the master and slave cylinder. A controller, in this case is able to be adjusted via an Android/iPhone with Bluetooth, can set the delay the clutch pedal is release after side-stepping the pedal. The controller delays then holds the clutch at the "bite" engagement point where you're expected to launch (the controller is controlling how far the pedal traveled). After a set point of time, it fully releases (like maybe after 0.75sec). Like I said, the concept is good but I think the CTAP and the OEM pedal sensor is not very compatible with each other because we're talking milliseconds in time for changes in the clutch travel.

Luckily, "Billy" is just down the road from me, maybe an hours drive. So, he's been readily available since these haven't been installed in any Camaro yet (I'm the first).

I got mine yesterday. I think I am going to use a roller arm limit switch to arm. Looks like I may be able to mount it on the return spring arm/bracket next to the clutch rod. I found one on Amazon for $20. Two wires are NO and the other two NC.

[dreksnot]

When I was at my track rental last month, Billy swapped controllers out with me - the newer one has a resistor installed to cut/reduce EMI from a 2-step. As for the OEM clutch position sensor - it appears to be working totally as it should be. Maybe that was my problem with the timely signal. I haven't had a chance to reinstall yet as I'm prepping for the Texas Mile. Which means to fix one thing on the car with the results being creating three more issues.

[Big Biscuits]

Originally Posted by dreksnot

When I was at my track rental last month, Billy swapped controllers out with me - the newer one has a resistor installed to cut/reduce EMI from a 2-step. As for the OEM clutch position sensor - it appears to be working totally as it should be. Maybe that was my problem with the timely signal. I haven't had a chance to reinstall yet as I'm prepping for the Texas Mile. Which means to fix one thing on the car with the results being creating three more issues.

I had to return the amazon switch. Way to big. Ordered the LPE Ctap setup and installed it yesterday. Nice being this close to Summit Racing. Works like it should. Problem I have is finding the bite point. I have the tick master cylinder and the throw is shorter than stock. I am going to shorten the master cylinder rod a little more. Right now it slips too much and the delay is maxed out. Also need to use the master arming wire because it wants to go back into slip arming when I shift. Lots of adjusting and testing...

[dreksnot]

Originally Posted by Big Biscuits

I had to return the amazon switch. Way to big. Ordered the LPE Ctap setup and installed it yesterday. Nice being this close to Summit Racing. Works like it should. Problem I have is finding the bite point. I have the tick master cylinder and the throw is shorter than stock. I am going to shorten the master cylinder rod a little more. Right now it slips too much and the delay is maxed out. Also need to use the master arming wire because it wants to go back into slip arming when I shift. Lots of adjusting and testing...

I was having the opposite with the "older" BSB controller - having to be near zero for the Delay (hoping that added resistor does the trick), and sometimes the pedal would stay down (engage) too long [sounds clearly like an EMI issue). I added a delay circuit in the mix so I can use my line-lock button to act as a switch (not master) to engage the BSB and stay energized for 2 seconds (enough time for me to release and get rolling before shifting gears). The BSB won't go back into slipping mode with my setup. I'm using my Master Arm for the line-lock as the Master Arm for the BSB controller. I plan to start playing with it again after I run the Texas Mile, get back and hoping there's no snow to contend with here. Cold tires do spin easier so it would be a good time to "play" with the controller without fear of thrashing anything.

[Big Biscuits]

I have an email into Billy to ask for advice. I’m hoping to have this going for street car shootout in November. I just want to run some good 1/4 mile passes to see what she will do.

[acammer]

Spent some time at the track last week. I think I've found my new slipper clutch setup - bias ply slicks. Seriously, compared to radials the slicks are SO much more forgiving, and tolerate (and maybe even prefer) some wheel spin off the line. Pulled a 1.56 60' with this car at essentially a 2 ton race weight. I used very little slip, I didn't side-step the pedal by any means, but basically a very fast release, let the tire spin just a little on the hit, and nice results.

In truth, I need more time to make sure I can get this very repeatable, but I'm starting to see the light on why all the crusty old stick shift guys look at newbies on radials and just shake their heads...

[Big Biscuits]

Originally Posted by acammer

Spent some time at the track last week. I think I've found my new slipper clutch setup - bias ply slicks. Seriously, compared to radials the slicks are SO much more forgiving, and tolerate (and maybe even prefer) some wheel spin off the line. Pulled a 1.56 60' with this car at essentially a 2 ton race weight. I used very little slip, I didn't side-step the pedal by any means, but basically a very fast release, let the tire spin just a little on the hit, and nice results.

In truth, I need more time to make sure I can get this very repeatable, but I'm starting to see the light on why all the crusty old stick shift guys look at newbies on radials and just shake their heads...

Nearly everyone with an old school manual say bias over radial for a stick. They act like a spring. Winding up and releasing energy. Do you run bias fronts too?

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Big Biscuits

Nearly everyone with an old school manual say bias over radial for a stick. They act like a spring. Winding up and releasing energy. Do you run bias fronts too?

Yessir, bias ply skinnies up front. The handling is fine - I don't know what people make such a big fuss about, this has never made me nervous street driving on that setup. I try not to street drive it much, as I'm sure it wouldn't take much to hurt one of those tires, but they sure don't seem to mind it at all. I can tell you that with 20psi of "cruising" pressure in the rears, with no burnout, they don't hook very well. But with heat and about 16psi, they work nicely.

I think the wind up and release as some truth to it - more than anything I think they are just more forgiving. With a radial, once that tire gets even a little wheel speed in it, they just "let go" and you need to make a big correction with the throttle to get the tire hooked back up. The bias ply seems to thrive on just a little wheel speed. Watch this video of my manual 2 ton car going a 1.56 60'.



That's 5,500 on the 2-step, and you'll hear I have the 2-step disengage just as I make my clutch release, so I get a little flash of rpm into the clutch release, the rpms pull down a bit as the car leaves the line, and then they rise as the tire progresses into light wheelspin, then rehooks, pulls the motor back down a little, and pulls through the rest of the gear. The RPMs basically stay between 5000 and 6000rpm through the entire "launch" sequence and then rise after the car is hooked up and head toward the (way to early) 1-2 shift. Through all that, the car never even thinks about setting the nose down. I don't think it picked a tire up, but it for sure dirty dangled that front end pretty good for a few feet!

I know the bias ply slick is gonna hurt MPH and performance down the track compared to a radial. But, the way they work off the line for a stick car, I'm starting to understand that wisdom and why they are so popular. On a marginal surface, the advantage grows. I want to no-prep this car some, we have a bunch of those around here, and I think the QTP is gonna be my tire for that. I still need more time with this setup and the tire to fully understand it, but my first experience is positive for sure.

[George-CZ]

Originally Posted by acammer

Yessir, bias ply skinnies up front. The handling is fine - I don't know what people make such a big fuss about, this has never made me nervous street driving on that setup. I try not to street drive it much, as I'm sure it wouldn't take much to hurt one of those tires, but they sure don't seem to mind it at all. I can tell you that with 20psi of "cruising" pressure in the rears, with no burnout, they don't hook very well. But with heat and about 16psi, they work nicely.

I think the wind up and release as some truth to it - more than anything I think they are just more forgiving. With a radial, once that tire gets even a little wheel speed in it, they just "let go" and you need to make a big correction with the throttle to get the tire hooked back up. The bias ply seems to thrive on just a little wheel speed. Watch this video of my manual 2 ton car going a 1.56 60'.



That's 5,500 on the 2-step, and you'll hear I have the 2-step disengage just as I make my clutch release, so I get a little flash of rpm into the clutch release, the rpms pull down a bit as the car leaves the line, and then they rise as the tire progresses into light wheelspin, then rehooks, pulls the motor back down a little, and pulls through the rest of the gear. The RPMs basically stay between 5000 and 6000rpm through the entire "launch" sequence and then rise after the car is hooked up and head toward the (way to early) 1-2 shift. Through all that, the car never even thinks about setting the nose down. I don't think it picked a tire up, but it for sure dirty dangled that front end pretty good for a few feet!

I know the bias ply slick is gonna hurt MPH and performance down the track compared to a radial. But, the way they work off the line for a stick car, I'm starting to understand that wisdom and why they are so popular. On a marginal surface, the advantage grows. I want to no-prep this car some, we have a bunch of those around here, and I think the QTP is gonna be my tire for that. I still need more time with this setup and the tire to fully understand it, but my first experience is positive for sure.

I've never been to a drag race. Too short a ride for me. He drove endurance races of 6 or 12 hours with alternating crews.
But this was nice