[AZCamaroFan]

Well it was certainly not a business failure in it's first 3 generations. Go look up the numbers.
yeah sales fell off in the 4th generation, and it didn't make business sense to build a new generation with no platform to share it with. The 2005 mustang shared parts with other new ford products at the time.
and yes the mustang has a more devoted following but i would defy anyone to look at a 70s, 80s or 90s Camaro vs. Mustang and say the mustang looked better, or that it handled better or was faster.

And as far as sales, 10 years ago the Camaro was leading sales. Since 2019 the Camaro has fallen way off, but hold, the Mustang is now under 50,000 sales per year too. the segment cannot support 3 cars.
long live the mustang and camaro. %^&(* the challenger.

[GreyGhost702]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

Well it was certainly not a business failure in it's first 3 generations. Go look up the numbers.
yeah sales fell off in the 4th generation, and it didn't make business sense to build a new generation with no platform to share it with. The 2005 mustang shared parts with other new ford products at the time.
and yes the mustang has a more devoted following but i would defy anyone to look at a 70s, 80s or 90s Camaro vs. Mustang and say the mustang looked better, or that it handled better or was faster.

And as far as sales, 10 years ago the Camaro was leading sales. Since 2019 the Camaro has fallen way off, but hold, the Mustang is now under 50,000 sales per year too. the segment cannot support 3 cars.
long live the mustang and camaro. %^&(* the challenger.

No, the 70's-90's were not winning years for the Camaro in the big picture. It won a few battles in sales. It out-sold Mustang 2 years in the 70's. 4 years in the 80's. Only 1 year in the 90's. That's 7 years out of 30 years, the Camaro out-sold Mustang. Or, from 1967 to 2002, that's 7 years out of 35 years. The Camaro lost in sales to the Mustang 80% of the time pre-5th Gen. 2010 The Camaro came back strong, GM spent earth shattering money re-launching the Camaro as a transformer, putting it in peoples faces almost Bullit Mustang style.... granted, nothing will ever top Bullit. But Bumblebee was a close runner up!

It had a good run and carried momentum into 2011, but by 2012 the coyote was on the scene and another iconic legend relaunch stole the show for the year with the Boss 302. 2013 Camaro gets the 1LE package, and by 2014 we've arrived at the last decade. The S550 stole the show, and with an IRS the Mustang wasn't considered to just be a straight-line pony car anymore.

I agree, the challenger is a boat and I'd never own one. I rented one once, it is extremely comfortable. But it drinks. Respect to the hellcat, but I only like to stop 1 time for fuel when I drive to Vegas, and the Hellcat can't do that lol. Pretty sure a F-16 idles with better fuel economy There were some 70's Mustang's that I thought looked better than the Camaro, I can't speak to their performance. Everything in the 70's was pretty pathetic. The 80's I hands down agree the Camaro was the looker. I've always loved the IROC Z/28 in that deep red. I think the 90's the Camaro got ugly, and by 98 it was ruined for me. But the 98 Firebird was a huge improvement, I'd kill for a WS6 Ram Air today, just to keep in the back under a cover and show people like a coin collection. Probably one of the sexiest domestic cars to touch pavement until the '02 SVT Cobra.

Anyways, it's not right or wrong thing here, just an opinion of why the Camaro is ending. I pray we just don't see it re-launch as an EV. Or maybe... yeah let them relaunch it as an EV! I'll open a retrofitting shop and gut the electrics and stick 'vette goodies in their place

[AZCamaroFan]

not trying to hate, you seem like a nice guy, i just disagree on your points.
firstly you can lose in sales and still be doing very well.
secondly you seem to be unaware of the Pontiac Firebird which rode on the same platform and competed for sales. At one point the Camaro and Firebird combined for about a half a million sales per year.
it's like ford talking about the F150 being number one in sales year after year. Yeah and Gm sells a chevy truck and a GM truck that's the same thing and combines for more sales.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by GreyGhost702

I pray we just don't see it re-launch as an EV. Or maybe... yeah let them relaunch it as an EV! I'll open a retrofitting shop and gut the electrics and stick 'vette goodies in their place

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro with a small-block V8.

For better or worse, the Camaro has too much power for being "just" RWD. That's part of what makes it fun, but putting that power to the ground in a way that really sticks is also seriously fun.

An EV Camaro would need to be a dual-motor/AWD setup to satisfy anyone willing to give it a look. I assume some folks on here have driven (really driven) an EV and can see and feel the potential application to a muscle car. It won't be quite the same, but it will be different in exciting ways. There's more than plenty room for enthusiasts in an EV world.

Looks like Dodge will have the first muscle car EV on the market. We can test theirs and tell GM how to do it better. If there's still any guys around GM who worked on the 4th, 5th, 6th gen cars and have any say in an EV Camaro, I think we'll be pleased. They haven't let us down in the past.

Keep the faith?

[GreyGhost702]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

not trying to hate, you seem like a nice guy, i just disagree on your points.
firstly you can lose in sales and still be doing very well.
secondly you seem to be unaware of the Pontiac Firebird which rode on the same platform and competed for sales. At one point the Camaro and Firebird combined for about a half a million sales per year.
it's like ford talking about the F150 being number one in sales year after year. Yeah and Gm sells a chevy truck and a GM truck that's the same thing and combines for more sales.

I agree on your points, but the Firebird isn't the Camaro and vice versa. Yes, pretty much the same car in terms of chasis and parts. I'm not saying GM lost money at all. We're talking metrics. People who bought Firebirds liked the Firebird, not the Camaro. Sure, some would be happy with either, but most are buying what they're buying because they like it best, they find it... more disrable dare I say... 😁

The Mustang didn't share a chasis with any other platform that I'm aware of. Sure, it shared engines and drivetrains to some degree. Like you couldn't find a Chevy 5.7 in everything for 50 years lol. Even Chevy had a 5.0 for a while. I would also make the same arguement for the F150. Back in the day Ford/Mercury had the Crown Vic and Grand Marqui. Same chasis, different flavors.

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro with a small-block V8.

For better or worse, the Camaro has too much power for being "just" RWD. That's part of what makes it fun, but putting that power to the ground in a way that really sticks is also seriously fun.

An EV Camaro would need to be a dual-motor/AWD setup to satisfy anyone willing to give it a look. I assume some folks on here have driven (really driven) an EV and can see and feel the potential application to a muscle car. It won't be quite the same, but it will be different in exciting ways. There's more than plenty room for enthusiasts in an EV world.

Looks like Dodge will have the first muscle car EV on the market. We can test theirs and tell GM how to do it better. If there's still any guys around GM who worked on the 4th, 5th, 6th gen cars and have any say in an EV Camaro, I think we'll be pleased. They haven't let us down in the past.

Keep the faith?

Nevar! Death to the EV! 🤣😋

[arpad_m]

Just putting it out here, higher sales ≠ better product.

Sales---and by extension, popularity---is just a proxy to product quality, one that used to be much more reliable than it is today, yet it seems people still equate one to the other all too often.

[NovaSS4spdFan]

The Fox bodied Mustang shared bones with the Ford Fairmont (and Mercury stable mate) for nearly two decades. Of course that's now ancient history, but worth mentioning because the Firebird hasn't been made in nearly a quarter century (can't believe it is gone that long).

[AZCamaroFan]

actually the mustang did share a chassis. the first generation with the Falcon, the second generation with the Pinto, and the third generation with the Fairmont and Mercury Zephy. the 1994 generation was also based on an updated version of that platform. When the 2005 mustang came out it shared a chassis with the Thunderbird and Lincoln LS.
also when the Camaro came back in 2009 without the Firebird it was selling just a little bit more than the two were selling together in 2002. But it was a success because the platform was already paid for and for the price they were making per model.

[GreyGhost702]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Just putting it out here, higher sales ≠ better product.

Sales---and by extension, popularity---is just a proxy to product quality, one that used to be much more reliable than it is today, yet it seems people still equate one to the other all too often.

Agreed, also why I call it "soft data." To make a real argument one would have to revisit every year of the Mustang/Camaro and create a standard. The real boner would be digging through the history of issues for each vehicle. Shitty GM rear ends, shitty Ford transmissions, and so on.

Americans also eat cheeseburgers by the truckload, and there's an obesity problem in this country. I'm not saying sales figures are an absolute metric proving the Mustang was ever better by any means. I'm just saying people choose the Mustang over the Camaro more. Just like mobs continue to line up at McDonalds for that super-size me. People will buy things, sometimes even when those things are trash.

[AZCamaroFan]

years ago an auto writer tried to explain it by saying 'there seems to be a touchy-feely thing that surrounds the mustang for some reason'

[Hack]

It's funny how two cars that are extremely similar can also be so different. I own a 2017 Mustang GT PP1 M6 and a 2021 LT1 M6. I think Ford prioritized comfort and styling way too much.

The Coyote is a good engine, but 5 liters is way too small. They should have gone to at least 5.5 or 5.7 liters to get better performance out of it. The suspension on the PP1 from the factory is so soft that I feel it's borderline dangerous in a performance situation. The car is also larger than I would prefer. I think Ford could have easily gotten a couple hundred pounds out of the car, which would have improved it so much.

As a driving enthusiast, I prefer performance over comfort and styling as my priority.

But I understand why Ford focused on a broader market and sales over performance. I've read that the average age of a Mustang buyer is mid 50s. So the pony car market consists of a lot of older people who may not prioritize performance like I do.

Yes, the Mustang does well in sales, but I think the Camaro is a lot more fun to drive.

[OBD3]

But I understand why Ford focused on a broader market and sales over performance. I've read that the average age of a Mustang buyer is mid 50s. So the pony car market consists of a lot of older people who may not prioritize performance like I do.

Yes, the Mustang does well in sales, but I think the Camaro is a lot more fun to drive.[/QUOTE]

This is very true at least in my situation, most people view both the Mustang and the Camaro as Niche vehicles that are usually used as a second or third vehicle. Of course not all people do and there are some that use them as DDs.
I extensively researched both and i did look at the the Dodge Challenger but discarded that as it did not come from the factory as a convertible option although you can do an aftermarket for alot of money. I did have a 2000 Firebird Convertible with the legendary 3800. Great motor and one of GMs best. I do like GM better though and what sold me the most was the way the top folded down in the Camaro and not that old fashioned handle in the Mustang. IMHO the Camaro won in looks department as a very nice looking vehicle.
If the Camaro does come back as an electric which i have my doubts, the Mustang may not be around to compete as they are just too expensive for some of the younger folks.

[Gen6cyl]

I have driven a 02 stang gt and a 08 gt many years ago. Drove like sh#t.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Hack

It's funny how two cars that are extremely similar can also be so different. I own a 2017 Mustang GT PP1 M6 and a 2021 LT1 M6. I think Ford prioritized comfort and styling way too much.

The Coyote is a good engine, but 5 liters is way too small. They should have gone to at least 5.5 or 5.7 liters to get better performance out of it. The suspension on the PP1 from the factory is so soft that I feel it's borderline dangerous in a performance situation. The car is also larger than I would prefer. I think Ford could have easily gotten a couple hundred pounds out of the car, which would have improved it so much.

As a driving enthusiast, I prefer performance over comfort and styling as my priority.

But I understand why Ford focused on a broader market and sales over performance. I've read that the average age of a Mustang buyer is mid 50s. So the pony car market consists of a lot of older people who may not prioritize performance like I do.

Yes, the Mustang does well in sales, but I think the Camaro is a lot more fun to drive.

5 liters is fine for a DOHC engine. While the 15-17 GT is noticeably slower than our cars, the 18+ typically has an edge on our cars from a roll/up top.