Chillers

[mrzmikey]

still waiting, blah blah blah

[Trackman]

Originally Posted by mrzmikey

still waiting, blah blah blah

.......Yikes
I think a refund is in order.
He needs to pass the torch on to a company that can supply the product.

[unstable vic]

What I don't understand is why take anyone's money before your ready to ship the product? Honestly, we ALL have things going on in our personal life. That has to be separated from business. He had enough time to take payment, right? Sorry guys, these type of buisness ethics and hiding behind the cover of "family life/problems" doesn't cut it with me. I would do a charge back on your credit card immediately. Good luck.

[GenF-GTS]

Originally Posted by unstable vic

What I don't understand is why take anyone's money before your ready to ship the product? Honestly, we ALL have things going on in our personal life. That has to be separated from business. He had enough time to take payment, right? Sorry guys, these type of buisness ethics and hiding behind the cover of "family life/problems" doesn't cut it with me. I would do a charge back on your credit card immediately. Good luck.

Although I some what agree, people really want one, if you pull out when he does sort out his situation when will you get one if you have to pay again.

It's really sad because it is a great product.

[JamesZL1]

I have been trying to decide what I need to buy 1st for my car. With my pulley setup, My IAT2 gets to 190 pretty quick. I was going to buy an AFCO HX with the dual fan setup because I mainly just daily drive my car, but go to the 1/4 mile track once or twice a month. I have also considered running a Alky Methanol setup to help with my octane / IAT's. Kinda leaning more towards the Methanol setup 1st...Comments?

[2013 ZL1 #7860]

Originally Posted by Trackman

He needs to pass the torch on to a company that can supply the product.

I have to agree. The product and idea is awesome, a larger company (not RX) would surely pay for the rights to build and sell them. I would think TrekGTO could retire just manufacturing complete kits and providing them to another vendor who then sells them as they are available.

Originally Posted by unstable vic

What I don't understand is why take anyone's money before your ready to ship the product? Honestly, we ALL have things going on in our personal life. That has to be separated from business. He had enough time to take payment, right? Sorry guys, these type of buisness ethics and hiding behind the cover of "family life/problems" doesn't cut it with me. I would do a charge back on your credit card immediately. Good luck.

In my case, I tried to pay him and get one ordered and he told me upfront what was going on and that he was very far behind. I choose to pay a small deposit for materials and wait it out. I was hoping it would be sooner but eventually he should come through and I think the custom and unique product is worth the wait.

Originally Posted by GenF-GTS

Although I some what agree, people really want one, if you pull out when he does sort out his situation when will you get one if you have to pay again.

It's really sad because it is a great product.

I agree! If you dispute the charge, I doubt you will ever be able to get one from him at a later date and there really are no other options yet for chillers.

I will hold out and see what happens. I got a PM 2 days ago from TrekGTO that said he was making some progress so hopefully the wait will be over soon for some.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by JamesZL1

I have been trying to decide what I need to buy 1st for my car. With my pulley setup, My IAT2 gets to 190 pretty quick. I was going to buy an AFCO HX with the dual fan setup because I mainly just daily drive my car, but go to the 1/4 mile track once or twice a month. I have also considered running a Alky Methanol setup to help with my octane / IAT's. Kinda leaning more towards the Methanol setup 1st...Comments?

I kinda think you would be better of starting a whole new thread about meth....I know it has been discussed before but I have not seen one for a while and it is kind of controversial.

[2013 ZL1 #7860]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I kinda think you would be better of starting a whole new thread about meth....I know it has been discussed before but I have not seen one for a while and it is kind of controversial.

I agree and would like to hear more about people using meth injection on ZL1's.

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

Heat soak is the heat from the engine working up into the intake system and raising the intake temps on the car. I may have more racing hours at higher horsepower levels than anyone else with a ZL1 and I have been working on high intake temps from day 1 owning the ZL1.

When people talk about intake heat there is something that must be clearly understood, the vast majority of time spent by most ZL1 owners is with the supercharger purring along with the bypass valve open. When the car is at idle, when the car is cruising down the interstate at 70, anytime you do not have the throttle mashed the bypass is open and the supercharger is freewheeling. At these times, any intake heat you are getting is from the engine, this is "heatsoak". If you look at your boost gauge, it sits at zero most of the time. Supercharger is spinning but it is sort of on stand-by with all of the air free flowing back into the intake tube. It is not compressing air and it is not making any heat. When your car is in this kind of operation mode, phenolytic spacers and chillers do a wonderful job of keeping the supercharger a little cooler and then when you give it the beans for 5 to 10 seconds it will be a little more peppy.

When you push the gas, close the bypass and the supercharger actually has to make boost it makes a lot of heat. Not heatsoak from the engine but the supercharger itself is compressing air and spinning upwards of 23,000 rpms against resistance. If you stand on the gas a lot, as an example when I road race my car at my local track I have a 2.5 mile lap that has 3 quarter mile plus straights and 4 eighth mile plus straights. I do one lap in about 2 minutes, on a 30 minute session my car does 45 flat out 1/4 mile runs and 60 flat out eighth mile runs with the only rest being when I'm standing on the brakes. In these circumstances the supercharger is the hottest item on the car. It is far hotter than the rest of the engine because the intake temps can get well over 200 and some of the water coming out of supercharger brick will actually boil into steam. I can shut down after 30 minutes and have easily boiled off a gallon of water. As Trackman stated above, you could easily cook burgers on the lid of the supercharger and you sure don't want to touch it. In these conditions the supercharger actually drives up the engine water and oil temps. You do not want to put spacers under the supercharger because the supercharger NEEDS to heatsoak back into the engine, there are no water jackets around the rotors and intake manifold. The water going through it is trying to cool air and the air is still getting over 200 AFTER it has been cooled by the water. That means rotor and metal temps are over 300 before the cooling brick.

Chillers work great for daily driving and drag racing because they can store up some cool water but as soon as you get in the gas the A/C compressor turns off. In a drag race you hold the throttle for 10 seconds and that is about how long it takes to heat up the water that has already been chilled. Then if you can coast long enough to begin chilling the water back down and have the bypass open on the supercharger it is great. Forget it for road racing. I have heard that the chiller can actually cool enough water for a 24 second standing mile without getting intake temps over 140. You are looking at $700 to $1000 for a good chiller. You can buy a reservoir and a lot of bags or ice for that price. My testing has shown that I can do 2 pounds of ice or about the equivalent of a gallon reservoir of ice drag racing and never get a temp above 140.

As White ZL1 said previously 140 is kind of the magic number because above that your car adjusts timing and starts reducing power. If you don't have an accessory gauge or device to view IAT2 you may never know it is getting hot and the car is automatically reducing power. Even if it pulls a few degrees of timing and you lose 50 horepower, most people don't even notice the difference. It is still pretty fast. It cools down pretty quickly with the supercharger freewheeling with the bypass open.

I have a Heartbeat blower with the largest twin brick supercharger intercoolers available to date. I have a 4 gallon trunk reservoir with the best water pump available to date, I have a Ron Davis heat exchanger in my grill and it is very efficient without blocking airflow to the radiator and other cooling I have in my car. When my car is moving it cools very well. I'm still looking for a more powerful fan system to cool at lower speeds.

If you push up the boost levels and you hold the throttle open for more than 10 seconds at a time without giving it a lot of time to rest you need all the cooling you can get from a bigger tank, bigger pump and better intercoolers. Ice helps a ton if you do short runs. And nitrous does help also....lol.

Any leads on who has had sucess with a Chiller system for the mile and how they got enough capacity to last the mile? (tank location, size, etc).

The other option would be a heat exchanger within a trunk mounted ice tank if it works for the mile. I can see the benefits of keeping minerals out of the pump/intercooler/ and interior of the heat exchanger(s).

I know ice tanks are popular, but it seems like system degradation is inevitable.....?

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I haven't actually tested the phenolitic spacers but I'm pretty sure road racing with them would show higher IATs. Because as I stated when the supercharger gets really hot on the normal car it actually raises the oil and water temps.

I have got my IATs so hot the car actually shut down, that was before I had any way to read the temp... CEL code showed it shut down for max IAT2. I've never had any damage to a blower. They seem to be able to take a lot of heat. If you have the spacers in there I would just watch IAT2 and if it gets much over 210 come into the pit. Use the dashlogic, get an aeroforce gauge or get a bluetooth sender and use the torque app or something similar.

A phenolitic spacer is an insulator, like I said in the post above, the vast majority of people are cruising around with the supercharger in bypass but when you road race or try to stand on it for a mile or so, the supercharger is the hottest thing in the engine bay and at those times you don't want to insulate the supercharger from the rest of the engine.

I had the RDS spacer on my TVS2300 and no extreme issues with IATs at High Plains road course..... but 20 minute sessions. I only have one IAT sensor, but essentially like the ZL1 IAT2 since its relocated inside the maggie next to the injectors. I say "had", only because I now have the same 1/2" spacer system, but with a direct port N20 wet system..... didn't want anyone to think the N20 was doing the cooling. Using Aeroforce gauges and I don't recall temps over 150. However, I do have a huge oil cooler, tranny cooler, dual pass heat exchanger with spal fans, 1 gal reservoir, ceramic coated headers, 160 thermostat, no hint of engine coolant temp problems (stock radiator)..... but - not killer track temps like Texas.

[GenF-GTS]

Originally Posted by Blue70SS

Any leads on who has had sucess with a Chiller system for the mile and how they got enough capacity to last the mile? (tank location, size, etc).

The other option would be a heat exchanger within a trunk mounted ice tank if it works for the mile. I can see the benefits of keeping minerals out of the pump/intercooler/ and interior of the heat exchanger(s).

I know ice tanks are popular, but it seems like system degradation is inevitable.....?

We have 1000m sprints here, here is a customers review http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthrea...-Sprint-Temora

Also it's pretty simple get a decent intercooler pump determine the pumps GPM flow rate then determine how long you will be at WOT then build a reservoir that is going to last you that amount of time at WOT.

Turn the chiller on 10-15min before the race drop the temp of the entire reservoir down to 32f etc then do your mile run and have 32f degree intercooler fluid entering the blower for the entire 1mile pass.

Simple really.

[Blue70SS]

Originally Posted by GenF-GTS

We have 1000m sprints here, here is a customers review http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthrea...-Sprint-Temora

Also it's pretty simple get a decent intercooler pump determine the pumps GPM flow rate then determine how long you will be at WOT then build a reservoir that is going to last you that amount of time at WOT.

Turn the chiller on 10-15min before the race drop the temp of the entire reservoir down to 32f etc then do your mile run and have 32f degree intercooler fluid entering the blower for the entire 1mile pass.

Simple really.

Totally get the equation deal, just a lot more complicated than that. Nothing compares to real logged data with all the variables. Bottom line is starting IAT before the combustion chamber at the beginning of the mile, and at the end at a specific track ambient temp.

Not so much just how many gallons gets consumed in the mile. Yes, ideally just one circulation in a perfect scenario. Every pump indeed has a GPM rating, but none publish flow numbers with all the combined scenarios in the plumbing. Variables I see are the SC innercooler, if it has a thermal plate (temp part of it), blower speed and brand, line size, dual pass heat exchanger (but your competition mode takes that out of the loop), line length, location and height of the reservoir(s), thermal resistance of the lines used, etc.

A larger insulated reservoir at first glance seems like the best solution if only doing mile runs, as overkill has it's benefits. But I've got to take into consideration how long it takes to cool that mass of liquid before a run, vs how much heat the engine is generating also - ideally for the mile it seems like beginning the run without a hot engine bay would be better (obviously needs to be warmed up). Spinning the TVS2300 to 23,000 rpm means I need to be aware of bearing temps also - although in retrospect, a chiller should help pull temp from the SC case. I'm running a VIS Racing Terminator hood with the 7 vents open, since everything seems to come down to controlling heat.

For 1/4 mile runs, a 7 gal reservoir might mean needing to run the engine prior to a race quite a bit longer..... however, since consistency is more important, can the Forced Induction Interchiller temp setting be easily changed? For instance with a gigantic reservoir, super cooled water might not be needed unless I'm trying to set a personal record. Holding a consistant 80 degree IAT measured pre-cylinder (IAT2 on ZL1s) would be fantastic. I'm in a good power spot currently vs 6 point rollbar and track rules currently for our 6000-8000 ft DAs, so faster really isn't needed. I'm not looking to go full cage as I never want to make it a race car only. No dyno sheet at most recent 150 shot size, but should be in the 950 RWHP and 1050 RWTQ range based on previous results (Dynojet corrected #s).

Between runs for the 1/4 mile in the pits, I currently run the Torq dual pass dual spal fans between runs, along with a small high speed fan on the blower, circulate the HE coolant using a Varimax pump, all while the engine is off using a 70A power suppy at 14.5 volts

Other factors for me are that the Mile run will be done once or twice a year, autocross 3-4 times, 1/4 mile... about 10-13 events, and still do

[GenF-GTS]

The interchiller isn't a magical box filled with magic crystals its a chiller it uses refrigerant to supercooler your intercooler fluid.

Do ice boxes work? Yes
A chiller is exactly the same as an ice box it just gets colder than the ice box and you don't have the hassle of emptying the ice box and lugging 100lbs of ice to the track.

As for figuring out your intercooler systems GPM thats very easy put your return line into a bucket run the system for 10sec and then measure that amount and multiply it by 6, or run for 15sec and multiply by 4 etc etc.

At the end of the day the chiller will get your volume of coolant down to a very cold, usually freezing cold temperature, if your reservoir is built for mile racing and you do your GPM testing then you will know how much coolant you need for the mile races and how much you need for 1/4 mile races too, then simply quarter fill or half fill etc the reservoir for those specific events, if you are looking to have less weight in the car. Either volume the chiller will get the temps of that coolant way way down.

At the end of the day no heat exchanger is going to net you 32f or less intercooler fluid passing through your charger and no ice box is going to get to the same temps either.

Refrigerant versus ice cubes...guess which one is colder and ever lasting?

If your goal is to have the coldest intake temps during your entire mile race the correct sized reservoir, intercooler pump and chiller will be the best option netting you the best intake temps.

[graf101]

I just had an adm stage 2 LSA conversion installed by Andy at adm, and he did not include an iat2 sensor on my build. Anyone know how he bypassed this from a tuning aspect and possibly know what the reason for not including this might be? Is it safe to run without it? Please excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject.