[cvp33]

Originally Posted by Revalot

45 car lengths?

You’re right, it may actually be worse much worse. 130mph is 191 feet per second. With the ZLE 7 seconds behind the C8Z…….it could actually be MUCH worse. 1/4 mile drag guys always have trouble visualizing just how much distance can be gathered by a much better track car….especially over the course of a 2 minute lap. It’s likely 65 to 90 car lengths behind.

Here’s a video to help you visualize. But you will need to watch the whole video. It may help others on here as well that think you just need more power to overcome an inferior chassis and physics. It just doesn’t work that way on a road course.

https://youtu.be/mCQlLa36-0c

[Revalot]

I will review the video, in drag racing a .10 of a second is a car or bike length when racing the same vehicle. But 45 cars is a big difference. With the ZR1 C7 right under the C8 Z06, front engine vs mid engine, there only difference seems to be 85 HP.

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by Revalot

I will review the video, in drag racing a .10 of a second is a car or bike length when racing the same vehicle. But 45 cars is a big difference. With the ZR1 C7 right under the C8 Z06, front engine vs mid engine, there only difference seems to be 85 HP.

Yes, but we were comparing the ZLE to the C8Z. The ZR1 C7 is already superior to the ZLE by 6+ seconds, the C8Z makes that worse. Adding 105 hp to the 650hp ZLE to equal the ZR1’s 755 will not make it equal to the ZR1 on a road course, thus my argument that’ll take at least 800hp to overcome the C8Z’s superior mid-engine chassis on a road course.

As for 1/4 mile, I couldn’t care less. If all I wanted to do was go fast in a straight line for 9 or 10 seconds (like when I was in my 20’s) there are several $30K cars that’ll do that better than a Corvette or a Camaro…….like a big turbo fox body. I’m more interested in piloting a purpose built, high horsepower car around a challenging 18 turn, 3.27 mile road course 30 minutes at a time with a front straight and back straight of over 160mph.

[NG329]

Journalist lap times are just that. Journo lap times. It's great data, but not always relevant in the real world.

As for the facts, yes the C8 Z06 is definitely the superior platform off the showroom floor. The C7 ZR1 also pips the ZL1 (1LE).

However, compared to a C8 Z06 or any rear engine mid engine car, the truth is that most normal folks will probably go faster in the ZL1 as it is simply more forgiving and easier to drive. An argument can thus be made that in the real world track day and back road use the ZL1 is the better option. 9.8 out of 10 people cannot recover from a snap oversteer of a mid or rear engine car. Conversely, even idiots can drift a ZL1 'round a corner.

I'll also add that the C7 platform is ass-endy and very difficult to drive on the limit. You really need to know what you're doing once you start driving at competitive speeds. Plenty of C7 racers in my neck of the woods have expressed this. There's a reason why Vette owners have a bad rep at most organizations and they make jokes about it at the drivers meetings. The majority are driven poorly.

The major difference holding the ZL1(1LE) back is weight. Take $20-$30k and go on a weight reduction spree (custom fiberglass body) and add a little more downforce -- a larger adjustable wing matched with a larger front splitter and now we're splitting hairs. C8 Z06 included. TA race series lap times prove this. Weight is the achilles heel of the Camaro and nothing more.

I think that it all comes down to how much money you want to spend. Get a group of engineers together to compete with no rules. Give one group the ZL1 and another group the C8 Z06, C7 ZR1, and whatever. I'd bet that in the end all the cars end up within spitting distance of each other when it comes to lap times.

[cvp33]

Not interested in another race car w/o a warranty. Been there, done that. Not fun. I’d rather buy the right car for the right purpose. In order for road course duty = C8Z, ZR1, C7Z, ZLE.

As for magazine times, it’s absolutely a great way to test similar drivers in dissimilar cars on the same track. Don’t assume the M/E chassis is more difficult to pilot on a racetrack unless you’ve done it. I can tell you I’m very comfortable in a loose race car. The M/E’s I’ve driven are much more planted and balanced and actually inspire confidence. If anything the F/E Corvettes (ZR1, C7Z) are much more of a handful and harder to achieve peak times.

[FarmerFran]

I would still buy a ZL1 even with the shitshow of posts above me.

Oh, wait, I DID!

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Yes, but we were comparing the ZLE to the C8Z. The ZR1 C7 is already superior to the ZLE by 6+ seconds, the C8Z makes that worse. Adding 105 hp to the 650hp ZLE to equal the ZR1’s 755 will not make it equal to the ZR1 on a road course, thus my argument that’ll take at least 800hp to overcome the C8Z’s superior mid-engine chassis on a road course.

As for 1/4 mile, I couldn’t care less. If all I wanted to do was go fast in a straight line for 9 or 10 seconds (like when I was in my 20’s) there are several $30K cars that’ll do that better than a Corvette or a Camaro…….like a big turbo fox body. I’m more interested in piloting a purpose built, high horsepower car around a challenging 18 turn, 3.27 mile road course 30 minutes at a time with a front straight and back straight of over 160mph.

CANNOT RESIST... sorry, I love you man, but you are doing it for max times "piloting". Do not blame you, you want to win.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Not interested in another race car w/o a warranty. Been there, done that. Not fun. I’d rather buy the right car for the right purpose. In order for road course duty = C8Z, ZR1, C7Z, ZLE.

As for magazine times, it’s absolutely a great way to test similar drivers in dissimilar cars on the same track. Don’t assume the M/E chassis is more difficult to pilot on a racetrack unless you’ve done it. I can tell you I’m very comfortable in a loose race car. The M/E’s I’ve driven are much more planted and balanced and actually inspire confidence. If anything the F/E Corvettes (ZR1, C7Z) are much more of a handful and harder to achieve peak times.

I love the journalist tests as well.

MEs are not a perfect platform though. They lack front end feel especially under braking. I've driven a ton of Mid engine cars and the front ends are all shitty (my opinion of course). You drive them with "Trust" as opposed to "Feel". I drove on track with a buddy who has a 911 Turbo S (992) and whatever lengths he would pull on me exiting corners I would claw it back on the brakes and corner entries. FE excel on corner entry. What mids do well is they put the power down much better than a front engine (especially mid corner and exiting corners) and that's just physics. Steering is also another area where the C8 Z has been criticized. Obviously none of us here have driven them (yet) so we're going by journalist data. If you're an expert driver and you're comfortable playing with slip angle in turns, then I guess this convo is pretty pointless.

The AMG-GT is considered Front mid because it's behind the front axle but it's technically a front engine car and it pretty much owned the Nurburgring up until Porsche's latest attempt. It's also #2 on that Lightning Lap list. Shed 400-500lbs on a ZLE and it's running with pretty much anything out there.

I respect guys who want to buy the best reviewed car in the magazines/youtube vids.... and get to keep their warranties. Just don't be disappointed when the guy who worked his Mustang handles your bone stock super car - like the one in this vid. For a little bit of context this guy ran a 1:30 at Laguna Seca with a bone stock MP412c on Goodyears IIRC. That's a 12 year old car. The manufacturer's quoted performance numbers for the MP412c on street tires equal the C8 Z06's numbers.



The limitation of magazine reviews is journalists just run the cars as delivered. They don't even touch tires. Sometimes a little setup goes a long way. Strip the seats out of the ZL1 amongst other things, throw on some Hoosier A7 and consider that gap bridged.

I guess what I'm mainly saying is, don't focus so much on the data. Just get what moves you and get the car that you think would give you the most enjoyment. Anything can be made to go faster.

btw: nice home and nice collection of cars sir.

[ZED/28]

Originally Posted by Schlok

I'll toss something else into the mix. I've had a C7 Z51, a C7 Z06, a 2015 Z/28 (still) and a 2022 ZL1 (non-1LE). The Z06 was by far the fastest of the four cars stock. Lower weight than the ZL1 gives it this advantage easily. The C7 Z51 car I had did not have mag ride (wasn't tracking it) and it was a perfectly ok street car because it was NA and 'light weight' and made ok power. Then I got the Z06 and 'holy shit' that was a definite upgrade in handling, power, and badass-ery. Mine was a 2015, so I had the first year and didn't have all the nice changes that CVP33 had in his 2019 and can't speak to those benefits. I know that the supercharger was changed because of overheating in the rear cylinders in 2016-2017 but GM never really acknowledged that problem 'officially.' All my cars were manuals (won't buy an auto, this is why I don't have a C8) as I'm with the 'die hard crew' here with three pedals. The A10 I hear is a phenomenal transmission so I wouldn't say 'don't do it' but the manual in the ZL1 and the Z06 is a great transmission (plus 1 gear in the Z06 with the 7 speed). For the high cost of a Z06 (C7) I'd probably get the Camaro and know that the Camaro platform and cooling is 'pretty well sorted.' On the street, it would never be an issue but for those track rats, that could be important. I threw a 2650 and some other supporting bolt on mods (no opening of the engine) and it is now a ****ing animal. I don't know how these other guys (I say this with max respect) drive their 800+ whp ZL1s on the street. Wild stuff. I think the Camaro is a better buy, yeah it is heavier, but still wicked fast. The 1LE cars are studs, LOVED the Multimatic suspension on my Z/28, wish I could jam it on to the base ZL1 I have. The interior in the Camaro is pretty nice and some newer tech features have been added which you won't get in a 2019 or older C7....Also those cars are coming up on their warranty expiration SOON if that's a concern for you...

the real question is: how do you compare the Z28 (that youve kept) vs all those other cars you've had?

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

CANNOT RESIST... sorry, I love you man, but you are doing it for max times "piloting". Do not blame you, you want to win.

Yes, but different. A sustained 30 minute thrill vs. 10 seconds. I loved 1/4 mile before I discovered a road course. 1/4 mile was definitely cheaper though.

@NG329 - I think you inadvertently proved my point in several ways. The AMG-GT Black Series (with 880hp btw) is not a FE chassis. Nor is the car that beat it, the McLaren Senna. In fact, none of the top 5 cars on the Lightning Lap leader board are front engine chassis. The ZR1 was a beast and really took the F/E chassis as far as GM could and that’s why it’s now 6th and why GM, who wants to continue being a world-beater switched to ME.

As for ME’s, no chassis is perfect, but ME is better than RE. Also for the record, no real Porsche-file drives a Turbo S on a road course. Wrong weapon for the the wrong track. I’ve been running HPDE’s for 15 years and I’ve seen exactly 1 on course with us in 15 years. Now GT3’s, GT3 RS and GT2’s I’ve seen tons. And you have got it backwards. We F/E ZLE’s and Z06’s pull the ME’s on the straight, the GT2/3’s out-brake us due to lighter weight and get throttle on quicker post-apex. We just out torque-em and out power them on the straights. The superior ME chassis allows that underpowered ~500hp GT3 and GT2 to keep up with 755hp FE cars.

Watch my buddy chasing me in a 480hp GT3 challenge cup car with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Hoosier slicks and 600 fewer pounds versus me in my 650hp Z06 on stock iron brakes and Nitto NT-01’s. We both run a 2:02, but completely different way of getting there.

https://youtu.be/_U6k5fCfyrs

[Schlok]

Originally Posted by ZED/28

the real question is: how do you compare the Z28 (that youve kept) vs all those other cars you've had?

Great question. The Z/28 stock felt kind of like a dog. I took it to Vengeance and let them work it over and it was a totally different car. Much quicker and with the headers and big cam sounds awesome. My ZL1 when stock would probably have still eaten its lunch with the increased amount of low end torque. You can tell the Gen 5 platform is just bigger when driving both cars, it is very evident. GM was on the 'stripped down track rat' path with the Z/28 and it was clear that this didn't sell cars at 76,150 for the MSRP with AC and radio (which mine has). I bought one because I jumped on it when they were basically at rock bottom and GM was trying to give them away because they weren't selling. I thought it would be a nice car to have, especially with low build numbers (1801 built in 2 years or so, less now with nearly 100 parted out by now). In terms of performance I think Ring times say it all, the ZL1 lays a massive beat down on the Z/28 stock vs stock. I like the ZL1 more, has a bit better ground clearance, doesn't have $$$ brakes (they are nice though!) and the interior is good. As I said before, I wish I could have a non 1LE ZL1 with the DSSV suspension, it's really good and honestly I never bother to adjust the MRC in my ZL1. The 3.91 in the Z/28 was great, that thing gets out and moves in first and second gear with the rear end though!

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Yes, but different. A sustained 30 minute thrill vs. 10 seconds. I loved 1/4 mile before I discovered a road course. 1/4 mile was definitely cheaper though.

@NG329 - I think you inadvertently proved my point in several ways. The AMG-GT Black Series (with 880hp btw) is not a FE chassis. Nor is the car that beat it, the McLaren Senna. In fact, none of the top 5 cars on the Lightning Lap leader board are front engine chassis. The ZR1 was a beast and really took the F/E chassis as far as GM could and that’s why it’s now 6th and why GM, who wants to continue being a world-beater switched to ME.

As for ME’s, no chassis is perfect, but ME is better than RE. Also for the record, no real Porsche-file drives a Turbo S on a road course. Wrong weapon for the the wrong track. I’ve been running HPDE’s for 15 years and I’ve seen exactly 1 on course with us in 15 years. Now GT3’s, GT3 RS and GT2’s I’ve seen tons. And you have got it backwards. We F/E ZLE’s and Z06’s pull the ME’s on the straight, the GT2/3’s out-brake us due to lighter weight and get throttle on quicker post-apex. We just out torque-em and out power them on the straights. The superior ME chassis allows that underpowered ~500hp GT3 and GT2 to keep up with 755hp FE cars.

Watch my buddy chasing me in a 480hp GT3 challenge cup car with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Hoosier slicks and 600 fewer pounds versus me in my 650hp Z06 on stock iron brakes and Nitto NT-01’s. We both run a 2:02, but completely different way of getting there.

https://youtu.be/_U6k5fCfyrs

Was talking about A10 vs M6

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Yes, but different. A sustained 30 minute thrill vs. 10 seconds. I loved 1/4 mile before I discovered a road course. 1/4 mile was definitely cheaper though.

@NG329 - I think you inadvertently proved my point in several ways. The AMG-GT Black Series (with 880hp btw) is not a FE chassis. Nor is the car that beat it, the McLaren Senna. In fact, none of the top 5 cars on the Lightning Lap leader board are front engine chassis. The ZR1 was a beast and really took the F/E chassis as far as GM could and that’s why it’s now 6th and why GM, who wants to continue being a world-beater switched to ME.

As for ME’s, no chassis is perfect, but ME is better than RE. Also for the record, no real Porsche-file drives a Turbo S on a road course. Wrong weapon for the the wrong track. I’ve been running HPDE’s for 15 years and I’ve seen exactly 1 on course with us in 15 years. Now GT3’s, GT3 RS and GT2’s I’ve seen tons. And you have got it backwards. We F/E ZLE’s and Z06’s pull the ME’s on the straight, the GT2/3’s out-brake us due to lighter weight and get throttle on quicker post-apex. We just out torque-em and out power them on the straights. The superior ME chassis allows that underpowered ~500hp GT3 and GT2 to keep up with 755hp FE cars.

Watch my buddy chasing me in a 480hp GT3 challenge cup car with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Hoosier slicks and 600 fewer pounds versus me in my 650hp Z06 on stock iron brakes and Nitto NT-01’s. We both run a 2:02, but completely different way of getting there.

https://youtu.be/_U6k5fCfyrs

I respect everything you're saying but I think the jury is still out on FE cars. If we're being completely honest, we have never seen a front engine car that makes more than 500hp weigh less than 3400lbs. The Viper ACR comes close at 3374lbs and we see what that car can do. Nearly sub 7 min at Nurburgring. My argument is that power to weight is of more importance than engine layout/location. Case in point, the Trans Am Race cars have little engine mods but the chassis are 2900-3100 lbs. Those cars would absolutely clean up at a Lightning Lap. In fact, they're nearly 1 minute faster at VIR than that Senna's lap time. Obviously they are totally stripped down and are wearing slicks so it's not apples to apples.... I get that....but throw Cup 2Rs on those cars and they would still be 20-30sec faster. I only mention it to point out how critical power to weight is. The European ME cars have always had better power to weight and in the cases where the American's outmuscled the European cars, they simply could not put all of the power down - which I will admit is the main flaw of FE cars. If the American's spent more time developing lightweight chassis instead of trying to add more power every year, I think the gap would have been bridged a long time ago.

I think the two main factors are 1) power to weight and 2) tire selection.

Ultimately, I think the C8 Z06 Lightning Lap really comes down to tire selection. The cup 2R is pretty much the ultimate treaded track day tire. If you've ever read or watched a tires comparison test you can see how the tires vary on the same car. In Lightning Lap, compare the tires of the cars within 5 seconds slower than the C8 Z's time. I bet the tires are not the best option (probably Pirelli P Zeros, PS4S and other trash not really suited for track duty). I would not be surprised that if you strip the seats out of the ZL1-1LE throw in a lightweight battery (dropping 180lbs putting it slightly heavier than the Z06) and mount some Hoosier A7, that 2:45 lap now becomes a 2:39 (maybe 2:40 with Cup 2R).

FE Corvettes has plenty of race wins/championships against Porsche thru the years.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Watch my buddy chasing me in a 480hp GT3 challenge cup car with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Hoosier slicks and 600 fewer pounds versus me in my 650hp Z06 on stock iron brakes and Nitto NT-01’s. We both run a 2:02, but completely different way of getting there.

https://youtu.be/_U6k5fCfyrs

Nice vid. It may require some tweaking and I could be wrong but I think you could definitely carry more speed on the corner entries. He pulled back tons of time on the corner entries. I would have to drive your car to figure out why.

In my case, The ZL1-1LE brakes are out of this world and I believe the brakes are the key to its fast lap times in all these journalist tests. I've driven with quite a few quick PCA guys in GT3 and GT3RS and I have never been beaten on the brakes by them. They almost always get me on the drive out. While I don't have any video proof at this time, I can post up this vid of TurnInTrackOut who encountered the same thing.