[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes the 305s are an advantage. The same type of advantage the 1LE has had over the GT for the past 5 years. Are superior tires now a problem?

The PP2 will need all the tire it can get , if it can't beat the GT350 it won't beat the 1Le .

[metros11]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes the 305s are an advantage. The same type of advantage the 1LE has had over the GT for the past 5 years. Are superior tires now a problem?

Superior tires let the 1LE run with the GT350, forget the GT PP. If Ford beefs up the PP2 to run with the 1LE they will need fatter tires, and they will need upgraded and retuned suspension. That's not indicative of an out of the box Alpha to S550 comparison as you suggest. It will indicate that Ford can work the S550 to be great, but we already knew that.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

The PP2 will need all the tire it can get , if it can't beat the GT350 it won't beat the 1Le .

I dont think the PP2 will beat the 1LE because I dont think Ford was wiling to do what was necessary to the suspension, which caused the engineers to take it on themselves, but they could only do so much. the 350 is most likely to blame, but maybe Ford just doesn't care enough.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I dont think the PP2 will beat the 1LE because I dont think Ford was wiling to do what was necessary to the suspension, which caused the engineers to take it on themselves, but they could only do so much. the 350 is most likely to blame, but maybe Ford just doesn't care enough.

It’s obvious Ford doesn’t care, the 1le has been out long enough to benchmark against and they chose (on the pp1) to equip it with inferior components. It took the pride of the engineers to come up with a PP2 package meant to compete with the 1le.

The PP1 was a marketing and profit decision by ford, plain and simple. I’m actually surprised management let the PP2 come to fruition.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

It’s obvious Ford doesn’t care, the 1le has been out long enough to benchmark against and they chose (on the pp1) to equip it with inferior components. It took the pride of the engineers to come up with a PP2 package meant to compete with the 1le.

The PP1 was a marketing and profit decision by ford, plain and simple. I’m actually surprised management let the PP2 come to fruition.

I am looking forward to two things with the PP2. One is obviously the lap time of the PP2 compared to 1LE. I think the 1LE will still take it, but I think Ford will be happy with a delta of less than a second.

The second thing I am looking forward to is how repeatable is that performance in the PP2. The GT350 without the track pack overheated on sustained multi lap sessions. Now I put the blame on the drivers as Ford offered the proper cooling equipment, but they elected not to buy it and stuck with the GT350 trim level that was meant for those who just wanted the Voodoo V8. Now it's a different story if Ford charged too much, packaged wrong, etc but that was a choice the drivers made when buying it. The older GT500's had issues with the brakes and got slower for every additional lap.

Ford still recommends aux coolers for track days with the PP2, but instead of equipping the car with such coolers, they put it on the owners to buy and install them. They don't even offer to get them equipped from the factory. So for a car purely setup for the track, I consider that a huge blunder/oversight if those recommended aux coolers is proven to be necessary for track days or just legalise to protect Ford/give them something to point to if you bring the car in for warranty work due to it overheating.

So the performance of the PP2 might be there, but it will be curious if it can be sustainable performance or just developed to do well in the magazine tests.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

It’s obvious Ford doesn’t care, the 1le has been out long enough to benchmark against and they chose (on the pp1) to equip it with inferior components. It took the pride of the engineers to come up with a PP2 package meant to compete with the 1le.

The PP1 was a marketing and profit decision by ford, plain and simple. I’m actually surprised management let the PP2 come to fruition.

I will go a bit further by saying Ford don't care about the drivers who wants a car that will beat the 1Le . And why should they when whatever PP they come up with just needs to sell, not compete . Its time Ford takes care of there 2% like chevy has done . I think the Ford engineers had a easy time with the PP2 because all they had to do is figure out what they can remove from the GT350 to market it at a lower cost , and sacrifice performance.

[BlaqWhole]

He is only saying that Ford doesn't care because they are losing. Ford obviously cares. Again, why would they make all these drastic changes, up the engine output, invest in and install a 10 speed automatic, increase the price by a substantial amount, and then market the hell out of it to performance enthusiasts if they didn't care? That is a lot for a company that doesn't care. They do care. The Camaro is the Mustang's direct competitor. And they have to keep up or the enthusiasts will riot. The problem is that the Mustang can't beat the SS because the SS is too close to the GT350. In order to beat the SS, the GT would have to get closer to the GT350 or outright beat the GT350 which Ford cannot do because the enthusiasts will riot.

Think about this. Why did the GT not get the Bullitt's 475 hp engine? Why is the Bullitt not getting the PP2 suspension or the A10 trans? It is because the Shelby is hampering the performance. It isn't because Ford doesn't care. That is an excuse losers say when they lose...oh I didn't care...I didn't put my all into it. Nobody goes up against their fiercest competition with a "don't care" attitude. They are trying. But the SS and SS 1LE are just too close to (or better than) the GT350 and GT350R for them to take it out with the GT.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I will go a bit further by saying Ford don't care about the drivers who wants a car that will beat the 1Le . And why should they when whatever PP they come up with just needs to sell, not compete . Its time Ford takes care of there 2% like chevy has done . I think the Ford engineers had a easy time with the PP2 because all they had to do is figure out what they can remove from the GT350 to market it at a lower cost , and sacrifice performance.

Fords responsibility lies with making the shareholders money. Unfortunately, they have shown they don’t care about that 2%. I can’t say I blame them, as those 2% isn’t what’s making Ford money. The mustang has shown time and again ultimate performance isn’t the end all for selling cars. The GT, PP1, PP2, Bullitt, GT350, GT350R and soon to be GT500 shows Fords passion for giving their customers options. Those options may not always be the fastest, but again, that’s not the end all.

[Jastone]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Fords responsibility lies with making the shareholders money. Unfortunately, they have shown they don’t care about that 2%. I can’t say I blame them, as those 2% isn’t what’s making Ford money. The mustang has shown time and again ultimate performance isn’t the end all for selling cars. The GT, PP1, PP2, Bullitt, GT350, GT350R and soon to be GT500 shows Fords passion for giving their customers options. Those options may not always be the fastest, but again, that’s not the end all.

I agree, performance shouldn’t be a metric when designing a performance car. In today’s world, less is more. Instead of making big price increases to make their cars go slightly faster on track, ford should go back to making the car slower and lower the price. This way they can make more sales. Leave the “want to go fast demo” to GM.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Fords responsibility lies with making the shareholders money. Unfortunately, they have shown they don’t care about that 2%. I can’t say I blame them, as those 2% isn’t what’s making Ford money. The mustang has shown time and again ultimate performance isn’t the end all for selling cars. The GT, PP1, PP2, Bullitt, GT350, GT350R and soon to be GT500 shows Fords passion for giving their customers options. Those options may not always be the fastest, but again, that’s not the end all.

Mustangs are not Fords money maker, they sell more f150’s in a month then mustang for a year. So they do care about performance, there just not beating GM at it. Someone has to loose, it just happens to be Ford.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Fords responsibility lies with making the shareholders money. Unfortunately, they have shown they don’t care about that 2%. I can’t say I blame them, as those 2% isn’t what’s making Ford money. The mustang has shown time and again ultimate performance isn’t the end all for selling cars. The GT, PP1, PP2, Bullitt, GT350, GT350R and soon to be GT500 shows Fords passion for giving their customers options. Those options may not always be the fastest, but again, that’s not the end all.

Bullshit.

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Mustangs are not Fords money maker, they sell more f150’s in a month then mustang for a year. So they do care about performance, there just not beating GM at it. Someone has to loose, it just happens to be Ford.

Exactly.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Mustangs are not Fords money maker, they sell more f150’s in a month then mustang for a year. So they do care about performance, there just not beating GM at it. Someone has to loose, it just happens to be Ford.

Mustangs exist to make Ford money period. They may not make F150 profits, but they wouldn’t exist if they weren’t making money.

My point was, it’s obvious Ford didn’t care about surpassing the performance of the 1Le when the product they put out (PP1) wasn’t equipped with tire tire or suspension to tackle it. It’s redicilous to think the PP1 was made to compete. Now the PP2, absolutely...it has a much more aggressive suspension and much wider tires.

Those that think the PP1 was fords failed attempt are nuts.

[SpeedIsLife]

Honestly I think Ford's attitude, and history is clear evidence of this, is they'd rather sell 3 Mustangs that the public wants yet may not be the absolute top of the game in performance than sell 1 Mustang that put performance over everything else.

See: 1994-2002, 2015-2018.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

He is only saying that Ford doesn't care because they are losing. Ford obviously cares. Again, why would they make all these drastic changes, up the engine output, invest in and install a 10 speed automatic, increase the price by a substantial amount, and then market the hell out of it to performance enthusiasts if they didn't care? That is a lot for a company that doesn't care. They do care. The Camaro is the Mustang's direct competitor. And they have to keep up or the enthusiasts will riot. The problem is that the Mustang can't beat the SS because the SS is too close to the GT350. In order to beat the SS, the GT would have to get closer to the GT350 or outright beat the GT350 which Ford cannot do because the enthusiasts will riot.

Think about this. Why did the GT not get the Bullitt's 475 hp engine? Why is the Bullitt not getting the PP2 suspension or the A10 trans? It is because the Shelby is hampering the performance. It isn't because Ford doesn't care. That is an excuse losers say when they lose...oh I didn't care...I didn't put my all into it. Nobody goes up against their fiercest competition with a "don't care" attitude. They are trying. But the SS and SS 1LE are just too close to (or better than) the GT350 and GT350R for them to take it out with the GT.

It's not that FoMoCo doesn't care, its that they only care, just enough. Just enough to make profits. They, like most businesses are all about the bottom line.

I bolded a comment that sticks out coming from someone like you. Normally I can see your point if view and do agree often, but this "excuse" seems eerily similar to one you've made on multiple occasion in reference to your somewhat lackluster 1/4 mile times. By all means make the argument, but realize it goes both ways.

These companies make these cars to get us, the consumer, to open our wallets. How they do that is up to them. Make the most profitable vehicle in a segment via an arbitrarily chosen set of metrics, then put it to market. If the buyers bite, good, sell them more, if they want something a little different, tweek the formula, if they don't buy its all, scrap it.

They aren't out to fullfil our set of goals, to have the best handling, to be the fastest, to have the most power. They're out to fullfil their goal, make profit. Sometimes everything lines up and we get a vehicle that meets their goals AND checks many of the boxes we want, sometimes not. Do these companies care? To a point... but its their point, not ours.

GM produces great performers, that sell. Corvette is an icon. Camaro is everybit world class. Cadillac's V-series vehicles bring an awesome level of excitement to luxury.

Ford is selling niche performance left and right, FiST, FoST, FoRS, EdgeST, F-150 RAPTOR.

Mustang sells on a great deal of history AND its performance offerings. Is it the best in class? No. Does it need to be to make Ford money? No. So I wish they would aim to be the best performer in class? Sure, but I also realize that just because it isn't the best in some metrics, that doesn't automatically relegate it to last.

Besides I for one only ever worry about the performance of one vehicle, whatever one is mine at the time. I dont race magazines, I don't race fast lists, I race my car... and it performs at a level I choose.