[JamesNoBrakes]

Ess












You











Vees

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Camaro enthusiasts like myself find it hard to believe an EV version would be equal, or superior, to the driving experience offered with the current ICE version. Of course someone would buy it but saying no one wants an ICE Camaro is just as wrong. 24,652 people bought one last year. Did the cancellation of the 6th gen affirm your decision not to buy a Camaro?

Your posts are insightful but when it comes to GMs corporate strategy you're biased.

You are correct that from an engagement perspective a manual with a V8 exhaust will be hard to beat. Dodge and their fake rumble won’t cut it as it isn’t genuine.

Now consider that even for Camaro, manual transmissions are a low penetration option so you are now down to the sounds of he experience.

But an EV Camaro, if Gam does what I expect, will handle, ride, steer and brake in ways that will rival the current car.as I’ve been saying, in this segment it’s an NVH issue. All of it can be faked (Toyota manual trans EV). If GM finds that secret sauce then it’s just a coupe problem. And today that’s a BIG problem.

An EV Camaro will be a superior performance car compared to todays ICE car. But GM will likely have to take the car to another level to get it to sell as they will have convince most of the detractors on this site to do that. I have a hunch they can.

[90503]

As much as the "NVH" is used to disparage current ICE fans, any fake sound in an EV, especially in a Camaro, will be widely known as such and never be embraced to replace an ICE sound.

The EV Camaro with an NVH simulation will only be a slight step above a video game regardless of "handling". Sing the non-existent praises of an EV Camaro's handling if you want, but it won't cut it.

If you think it's just a few who like NVH, you're in for quite a surprise IMO. EVs will never be an acceptable substitute.

[Xaxas]

Dodge is promising the new EV muscle will be what enthusiasts want, but I really doubt they nail the experience unless

1) They use a single electric motor in the front
2) Have a transmission paired to that electric motor
3) Run a driveshaft to a rear differential
4) Emulate the pulses from an ICE instead of a linear, smooth power delivery

At least they nailed the traditional car interior, I spend all my day sitting in from of a computer and the least thing I want is drive a computer, they are also exclusively leaning on the synthetized sound, but then you'd also have to run an air pump in the front that's tied to both the programming of the pulses and throttle pedal, all of that for what? A completely synthetic experience that no executive will approve because they can just stick some speakers in the ass of the car and claim "car does vrooom", and while I approve of moving from gas to EV for multiple reasons, the regulations fail to take into account that specialty sports cars are sold in less numbers AND driven less than regular cars, your normal Corolla or Civic is spewing out more CO2 and what not that a ZL1 simply because the Corolla is being driven tens of thousands of mile per year compared to what? 10k? Maybe 20k for the freak that dailies his in a long commute, while 1 single Uber Corolla can rack up 100k miles EASY in a single year, and this is with the least efficient driving, ie not highway speeds at high gears, and THEN large vehicles are exempt from regulations the larger they are, that's why trucks have gotten bigger and GM sells half a million and the government doesn't bat an eye, same thing happened in Europe, they wanted to add noise regulations and went straight for Lambo and Ferrari, the Italian government told them to **** off, probably because the combines sales of those 2 companies are less than 1/35th of Silverado sales and again, they are BARELY driven, I say good on the Italians for protecting their specialty brands.

That's the business/car side of the issue, now there's also the buyer side of the issue, the regular Joe continues getting squeezed while cars continue to get more expensive, even the i4 Camaro doesn't make sense when you can get vehicles with twice the fuel economy and 3x the utility while also being more comfortable for less, those people who commute for 1+ plus stuck in traffic, I'm sure they'd rather be in a comfortable environment over a cramped cave with a harsher ride, I still get a lot of comments and looks about my car, I wish everyone could be able to have that experience, but when it comes to big purchases like a car, most people are rational, heck you might complain about kids getting a new $1000+ phone every year but that's 2-3 months of car+insurance payment, not counting recurring costs, on an asset that depreciates unlike a living space.

Sadly, sports cars are a hobby, one which was subsidized but regular car sales and fuel economy, but it's not making financial sense anymore, GM won't miss 25k at best Camaro sales a year, but they have their asses on fire over missing the EV sales Ford has with the Lightning and Hyundai/Kia have with their EVs, Luxury brands are the only ones that can afford to keep the sports car experience, and by that I mean anything Porsche+ money, to a point, even Ferrari is transitioning more to a "lifestyle" brand, notice the gimmicky interiors, a new SUV, them not allowing comparison in reviews of their cars...

And finally, we all know how bloody stupid the suits at GM has, they have the most competent people to dominate the performance vehicle market, Ford and Dodge play the horsepower wars while the LT5 get discontinued really quickly, Ford and Dodge make absurd high powered racing trucks and GM releases their "Meterorite" project, that which killed the dinosaurs, a modest off-road pack for their Silverado that costs as much as 700+ HP trucks...

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are correct that from an engagement perspective a manual with a V8 exhaust will be hard to beat. Dodge and their fake rumble won’t cut it as it isn’t genuine.

Now consider that even for Camaro, manual transmissions are a low penetration option so you are now down to the sounds of he experience.

But an EV Camaro, if Gam does what I expect, will handle, ride, steer and brake in ways that will rival the current car.as I’ve been saying, in this segment it’s an NVH issue. All of it can be faked (Toyota manual trans EV). If GM finds that secret sauce then it’s just a coupe problem. And today that’s a BIG problem.

An EV Camaro will be a superior performance car compared to todays ICE car. But GM will likely have to take the car to another level to get it to sell as they will have convince most of the detractors on this site to do that. I have a hunch they can.

Here’s where things can get really interesting. With EVs we actually could see coupes make a comeback. Part of the reason coupes have gone away is four door cars are more practical. But part of the reason for having a coupe is it doesn’t need to be practical. It’s a “me” car not a “we” car.

One of the main reasons for coupes and sedans declining in volume is more drivers like the high sitting position of trucks, SUVs, and CUVs. That will continue to be a thing.

Another major reason coupes and sedans are all but gone is the shadow area approach to calculating fuel economy. Without going into the deep and counterintuitive methods, just suffice to say cars with a smaller shadow area have much higher and harder to achieve fuel economy targets than trucks and utilities with larger shadow areas. So domestic automakers simply started dropping coupes and sedans from their portfolios to improve their CAFE positions. Buick has no cars. Ford only has Mustang. All four of GM’s cars are very low volume. Chevrolet used to have five sedans, now the entire company only has four cars and two of those are coupes. Why? CAFE shadow area rules.

So, as brands go more and more EV, shadow area no longer matters because the EVs don’t have fuel economy targets. There is no penalty for building coupes or sedans. I think after this current glut of EV crossovers finishes launching we’ll start to see more EV sedans and coupes coming to market for customers who are tiring of utilities.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 90503

As much as the "NVH" is used to disparage current ICE fans, any fake sound in an EV, especially in a Camaro, will be widely known as such and never be embraced to replace an ICE sound.

The EV Camaro with an NVH simulation will only be a slight step above a video game regardless of "handling". Sing the non-existent praises of an EV Camaro's handling if you want, but it won't cut it.

If you think it's just a few who like NVH, you're in for quite a surprise IMO. EVs will never be an acceptable substitute.

Why do says it’s used to disparage? It is simply 5e technical term that describes what everyone believes is going to be missed with and EV. Noise, Vibration and Harshness.

And I fully agree no one should fake it.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Here’s where things can get really interesting. With EVs we actually could see coupes make a comeback. Part of the reason coupes have gone away is four door cars are more practical. But part of the reason for having a coupe is it doesn’t need to be practical. It’s a “me” car not a “we” car.

One of the main reasons for coupes and sedans declining in volume is more drivers like the high sitting position of trucks, SUVs, and CUVs. That will continue to be a thing.

Another major reason coupes and sedans are all but gone is the shadow area approach to calculating fuel economy. Without going into the deep and counterintuitive methods, just suffice to say cars with a smaller shadow area have much higher and harder to achieve fuel economy targets than trucks and utilities with larger shadow areas. So domestic automakers simply started dropping coupes and sedans from their portfolios to improve their CAFE positions. Buick has no cars. Ford only has Mustang. All four of GM’s cars are very low volume. Chevrolet used to have five sedans, now the entire company only has four cars and two of those are coupes. Why? CAFE shadow area rules.

So, as brands go more and more EV, shadow area no longer matters because the EVs don’t have fuel economy targets. There is no penalty for building coupes or sedans. I think after this current glut of EV crossovers finishes launching we’ll start to see more EV sedans and coupes coming to market for customers who are tiring of utilities.

He only problem for GM is they’ve basically rid the,selves of sedans. CT4/5 and Malibu. And it’s simply because they haven’t done a sedan that is compelling.

I have high hopes for GM that an EV Camaro is so rep thing special. Segment defining special. But there is that track record of theirs.

[jamala00]

Another thread turned into yet another EV discussion... Will people never learn that EV discussions are no different then politics or religion discussions. People are on one side or the other and you are not going to convince anyone of anything... No matter how many times you repeat it.

[Wyzz Kydd]

I wouldn’t cross the street to piss on Mary’s head if it was on fire.

[triggerjerk]

Tesla released the nurburgring time for its Model S Plaid with a $20,000 track package. A ZL1 1LE is still faster . . .

[90503]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Why do says it’s used to disparage? It is simply 5e technical term that describes what everyone believes is going to be missed with and EV. Noise, Vibration and Harshness.

And I fully agree no one should fake it.

You should review your numerous posts condescendingly calling NVH "vroom vroom" in response to those who enjoy it in their ICE cars as if it's an insignificant feature to be ignored in favor of EV acceptance.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

He only problem for GM is they’ve basically rid the,selves of sedans. CT4/5 and Malibu. And it’s simply because they haven’t done a sedan that is compelling.

I have high hopes for GM that an EV Camaro is so rep thing special. Segment defining special. But there is that track record of theirs.

Because of the shadow area issue. Cruze sales were still very good when GM canceled it. But it didn’t work in CAFE planning because the small shadow area (the area between the tire contact patches) required an all but unattainable mpg target. GM does have several “low roof” EV concepts in the works, including a Buick (currently no cars) and maybe two or more Chevrolets. One is most likely a Camaro.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Another thread turned into yet another EV discussion... Will people never learn that EV discussions are no different then politics or religion discussions. People are on one side or the other and you are not going to convince anyone of anything... No matter how many times you repeat it.

So much truth.

[Mike818]

For some reason this iteration of "EV vs ICE" argument to me has some serious Vinyl vs. CD vibes.

One persons "warmth" is another persons noise etc etc....

Turns out none of that even mattered, everyone* streams music they don't even own now.

Own Nothing. Be Happy........./s



* Obviously not you Jim Bob, im talking about the youths not claiming SS yet.