[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by carguy55

A lesson here on checking your rear view in the braking zone

https://youtu.be/ffwMGHKS3Uc?t=20

No kidding...that could have ended real bad.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by carguy55

side story .... Jackie loses brakes goes off at 10B and almost starts a fire. Learns he should have a fire extinguisher in his race car the hard way. He switched to SRF, not sure what he had before.

https://youtu.be/FpkfMF_quBI?t=8

He boiled RBF600, or so it seems....
Obviously no real fire involved, just overheated brakes. Been there done it. But ya, having a bottle is a good idea.
Entertaining vid while his "pit crew" tries to address failing power mods. Another young gun who can drive

PS I would ponder the event's safety rules, like allowing a broken diff car to limp back to pits under hot track conditions, some folks being on warm up laps vs some on hot laps etc. A recipe for potential drama imo.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

It is all very weird and i share your interest in trying to find out what the root cause was.

Also weird that another car would lose brakes in the same corner, at the same event.

One lesson that can be drawn with zero doubt, is that many folks dont pay sufficient attention to importance of peripheral vision while on a race track. As in the guy who didn't see Sam coming on what looks like a venue with very good overall visibility.

Thanks for attaching Coby's vid. A likeable young gun who is obviously very dedicated and serious about his hobby, incl prep effort. His driving skills are superb and his pace excellent! Highly recommend his YouTube channel. One could argue that his driving style is a wee bit on an aggressive side, but he has plenty of talent to make it work for him without missing a beat!

As an aside, for anyone doubting how fast stock G3s are in capable hands, check his 1le VIR lap (he considers it a 1le track record on street tires running square 305 RE71Rs). Then check Provoste's lap on stock G3s

Anyhow, obviously i have a lot of questions, yet zero answers and won't stipulate what could have possibly happened to Sam's car. All i will say is that i am glad he is ok.

Here's a pic of his LF wheel posted by member in the unrelated BMR thread (just to add some relative detail):

I've turned plenty of laps in a variety of cars at Gingerman through HPDE and Lemons... I've even been involved in a crash in that corner. I will respectfully disagree with your stance on T10B: That turn is down-hill and cambered to the outside of the corner. Depending on the car/entry speed into that corner, braking points are at/near a transition in the track that decreases down-hill more than prior. It is also a corner that can easily get debris in it. If you are really putting down 9 to 10 10ths, it's very easy to over-whelm your car under braking and/or go into the corner too fast and understeer out. In a 6th Gen Camaro SS, for a fast lap, you'll be doing at around 90mph out of T9 and be near 100mph going into T10B, before you hit the brakes.

With the above said, your point is a good one, on being mindful of your surroundings, but due to the geography of the turn 8-9-10B sequence, and what you are doing with the car, it can be difficult to stay keen on what a car is doing the corner or two (T9 or T8) behind you.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by waterman

Following. Interested in the resolution to the issue.

I'm thankful that no one was seriously injured as a result of the aforementioned incident.

While I would not consider the OEM brake lines (flex) on 1LE sub-standard for DD use, after changing out mine and getting a closer look, I personally would not trust them in any form of HPDE or semi competitive track event, let alone wheel to wheel racing. Crimping in the OEM line was decent as was design and execution. However, expansion and subsequent potential for fatigue as well as the possibility for damage from debris in the wheel well were a definite concern for me.

A factory DOT3 fill in a track oriented car is a questionable decision in my opinion as well. Unless the thought process is to change out after break in.

FWIW, I'm very satisfied with the performance of the OEM calipers and pads. Brembo in collaboration with Chevrolet did a great job.

I've had no issues with my MC or ABS.... Power steering motor overheat in a high lat G turn can be an adventure though. Let's save that conversation for another day.

Apologies for the rant.

The factory flex lines in the SS, SS 1LE, ZL1 and ZL1 1LE are DOT "HL", meaning they are lines qualified to a much higher standard than your typical Chevy Cruze. On top of that, Chevy puts their track Camaros through a similar durability regiment that is done for the Corvette.
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...=546692&page=2
The factor of safety in design and manufacturing of components related to safety are much higher than other parts.

I'm not saying anything is impossible, as we are dealing with man-made components, so they are subject to man-made issues, but the light in which you are judging a component, such as brake lines, is a bit off.

[JD_]

Originally Posted by carguy55

A lesson here on checking your rear view in the braking zone

https://youtu.be/ffwMGHKS3Uc?t=20

And another... This was @FNxR3DNECK at VIR going into Roller Coaster:

[JLz06]

Subscribing for more info. Looks like it could have been a lot worse so its good that no one was seriously injured.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by carguy55

A lesson here on checking your rear view in the braking zone

https://youtu.be/ffwMGHKS3Uc?t=20

wow that's scary! How it is that the Chevy just wobbles a little, and the GT4 is spinning. I'm guessing the factors are weight distribution differences, maybe traction control settings (although 'race' setting isn't exactly a short leash.) I'm thinking too, maybe the GT4 starting braking right at the slick spot and the Chevy didn't.



What's also scary, is the other cars ahead don't seem to be affected at all! Maybe it was the green porsche that dumped the coolant?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I've turned plenty of laps in a variety of cars at Gingerman through HPDE and Lemons... I've even been involved in a crash in that corner. I will respectfully disagree with your stance on T10B: That turn is down-hill and cambered to the outside of the corner. Depending on the car/entry speed into that corner, braking points are at/near a transition in the track that decreases down-hill more than prior. It is also a corner that can easily get debris in it. If you are really putting down 9 to 10 10ths, it's very easy to over-whelm your brakes and/or go into the corner too fast and understeer out. In a 6th Gen Camaro SS, for a fast lap, you'll be doing at around 90mph out of T9 and be near 100mph going into T10B, before you hit the brakes.

With the above said, your point is a good one, on being mindful of your surroundings, but due to the geography of the turn 8-9-10B sequence, and what you are doing with the car, it can be difficult to stay keen on what a car is doing the corner or two (T9 or T8) behind you.

I stand corrected! I was basing my comments solely on the posted vids where a car ahead is plainly visible. Also appreciate your point regarding driver involvement in that sequence. And the fact that effective peripheral vision skill is not easy to develop. Cheers!

[carguy55]

Interview and in-car video of the guy that got hit

[samstrano]

There was a 600° fluid in the car. It was less than 3 weeks old. I used it at CMP where it was much hotter on a track that is known to be harder on brakes. The car was on brand new ST45 pads. No possibility of knockback certainly not fading. brake pedal was perfectly fine and turned 7 which is the last break zone before this happened car stopped at over 1.1 G in that slight uphill zone.

Evan, the guy with the Honda, could have never seen me coming. lots of conjecture on the internet that seems to indicate that somehow I was being an asshole and pushing him around the track. I was not in fact I was a couple seconds behind him and had actually laid off the lap before because my goal was not to shove him into a mistake. I was not racing him. Time trial is not road racing. There was no reason to dive bomb him. I hit him because the car made an abrupt right turn when the brake pedal went to the floor and it shot me across the inside of the corner and I slammed into him driver side of my car to passenger side of his. It's impossible for him to have known that was going to happen. Where he was in that corner and he was turned away where even if he had looked in his mirror which would be ridiculous at that point he wouldn't have seen anything other than the outside of turn 10 anyway. He was completely innocent. aside from the fact that I was in the car that hit him so was I. There was nothing I could do.

The wheel did not fall off and cause this problem. There isn't brake fluid sprayed everywhere. Even despite the left front wheel being ripped off in the roll. The reservoir was not empty. The brakes didn't have air in them If they did I would had a shitty pedal and I did not. I didn't have a soft pedal I didn't have a pedal I had to pump up. The brakes were there at 7 and not there at 10, At least not there for more than an absolute second when I first went to them.

That corner is not a downshifting corner. I approach it in third I run the whole thing in third I exit in third. I do not let foot brake. There's no way I could have done something like hit the clutch pedal instead of the brake pedal. Because my left foot was on the dead pedal.

The video shows very clearly that there was essentially no deceleration until the car was sideways and just scrubbing speed from that.

I have seen one of their incident with a 1LE have perfectly fine brakes in a corner, and there is video of this, and then have nothing a few seconds down the road. In his case nobody was in front of him and he was going straight and he had a gravel trap to stop him. I was bending left straightening the car up to turn back to the right. Looking at data I was basically going from no brake to max brake In about 1.2 seconds, then over the next roughly 1.5 seconds I was trailing off the pedal because that turn falls away and you need to do that to keep adequate weight on the nose.

When the general public can see the video it includes the two laps prior which I'm sure will show people that it wasn't running around there with no clue. It will show that I had brake pedal. It will show that I didn't do anything different entering that corner on that lap then I had the others.

I had more than adequate fluid. I had more than adequate pads. I was not on some weird strange tire setup. It did not break a wheel. I did not t-bone Evan. Evan could not have done anything about it. I couldn't have done anything about it.

Now, I am sure the internet being the internet somebody will have something to say. I've been doing this a while. Everybody always thinks they know better. And I can tell you that if you haven't been in that position you really can't say you would know anything about it. The two most concerning things to me is that a part of that new had a failure, and that somehow people think I need to be their savior. I am trying to do the right thing here. I kind of want to know what happened. I don't want to put anybody on the defensive. Doing that means I will never find out what happened. If there is an issue I want to see it fixed. It could have been as simple as a brake line failed. I just do not know for sure, and that's the important part I do not know for sure, what exactly happened to cause this particular chain of events. And I don't want to speculate all over the internet about it.

I respectfully ask you guys to do the same. I understand that you would be concerned about possible issues with your car. And I can't say that I blame you. I wish there had been some warning that things were about to go really wrong. There was not In my particular case.

And in closing let me address this thing about the collision avoidance. The car does not have any kind of dynamic braking. It was a 2SS. It's a safety feature that exists in that car and when I programmed things like my power seat position and my power mirror position and stuff like that collision avoidance was on. Because I used it on the street. Because better safe than sorry. All it does is flash at you to warn you that you've got severely high closing speeds. And occasionally it would go off at the track when I was bearing down on somebody who is maybe not on a hot lap. It did not play any factor in this at all.

Nor was any mode on that uses brakes to torque vector the car, there seems to be some people that think maybe I cooked something because of that. I was in none of those modes I was in PTM race. So all that was there was the traction control in the race setting. No stability control nothing grabbing the brakes. And hey why I'm at it it was 64°. It wasn't a hundred. I hadn't been out there for an hour. I think this was my fifth lap of the session. A 1:40 or so per lap, x5, yeah I didn't cook the brake fluid. This car was pretty much as close to a off-the-shelf GM track prep vehicle that you were going to find. It had an alignment better brake fluid and better pads. Aside from a couple little pieces that I was working on to make people's life easier and I'm still working on those by the way, there was nothing mechanical on that car that was altered other than having gotten rid of the crush pipes for actual full size ones.

So that's that. I'm going to ask once again, respectfully, that this doesn't turn into a huge thing with everybody asking me a million questions. The situation sucks it's not been fun. I've had to talk to people about 100,000 times in the last 8 days about it. I'm sore, I'm out a lot of money Even with track insurance. And now I've got people who I've never spoken to on the phone who are not customers of mine calling me wanting to pick my brain about this during the day at work. I can't do it guys. There isn't much more to say other than what I've already said above.

If and when the time comes that I can tell you what is found or what happened or whatever I'm sure you'll be made aware of it quickly.

[racerx8]

I'm sorry for both you and Evan but glad you're both OK! Difficult but try to get well that's the important part maybe ignore the phone and the forum for a while to give your brain a rest!

[carguy55]

Much respect Sam. Thanks for your comments.

[TrackClub]

Hi Sam and welcome to Camaro6 community. Firstly, let me say i am so sorry about the accident, but very glad that both you and the other driver are fine. I can only imagine how horrific an experience this must have been for both of you.

Also, my thanks for posting your thoughts. I appreciate the fact, that you don't want to be swamped with numerous questions, or reveal all details, while you are dealing with this situation. Must be highly stressful on many levels. Completely respect your position.

Having said that, many of us here track our cars, me included. Hence, I hope you'll appreciate the interest, as a logical response given the circumstances.

To this end, can you shed any light on the process you are following to get to a possible root cause? Only if it is appropriate, of course. Thanks!

Also, if possible, i need help understanding your statement, which appears to be an important one: "The two most concerning things to me is that a part of that new had a failure, and that somehow people think I need to be their savior."
Would you mind rephrasing it? Thanks!

Any possibility of posting a link to the vid of that other 1le having a failure that you refer to?

***Btw if answering the above questions is too hard these days, just ignore them please***

Also thanks for clarifying your car had a collision *alert* system vs collision *avoidance* system, as there is a significant difference between them. Good info to be aware of for all owners!

Lastly - more of my own musings - directed at the forum at large, based on previous posts.

1. I cannot help, but notice parallels with the Supra boiling fluid at the same corner on the same day. A faster, yet much lighter car. It sure seemed sudden too, as only a complete idiot, or a complete novice (neither clearly applying here) would continue pushing 10/10th into a corner at well above 100mph if he felt any fade whatsoever in prior corner(s).
The guy then switched from RBF600 to SRF (because "everyone loves this shit"). While a 3 week old fluid is never a problem, what really matters is how many events were on it, how hot it got, how long, etc. And what "600" fluid it was. I dont think many fast guys here run Camaros with any ST pads without SRF, or at least a 660 fluid (i had tried and cooked the brakes after just 3-4 laps). Just a hypothetical possibility, that's all and a note regarding matching high torque pads with proper fluid, using shims, deflectors, etc - especially given none of the Camaros come with proper race cooling ducts, and SS 1le doesn't even come with vented pistons.

2. Since the car didn't visibly lose brake fluid a brake line failure is probably unlikely? Just a guess subject to someone chiming in with proper expertise. One thing that changed recently is that Harco, who manufactures the lines got bought out. But it would be reasonable to assume their product quality remained unchanged.

3. I find it interesting the car had brakes for about a second before they went (per Sam's comments). That is not necessarily inconsistent with boiled fluid. This is not to suggest other causes could not have happened instead, but if by chance the Supra had the same fluid and pad combo (or close enough), then the similarities would need to be analysed at a micro level before being discarded outright as 100% impossible. Just my opinion regarding all inclusive due process when investigating root causes.

Personally, i am hoping (perhaps in a self serving manner) this could have been a case of boiled fluid afterall, just like the Supra. If only because it would be the least troublesome and easiest issue to avoid for the rest of us. Of course reality might be different, but we may never find out.

PS i must say big kudos to GM for building a well engineered car crash safety wise. Given the speeds and then G loads involved, it is very impressive Sam didn't suffer major trauma, especially having hit with a driver's side.

[RUQWIKR]

Originally Posted by samstrano

There was a 600° fluid in the car. It was less than 3 weeks old. I used it at CMP where it was much hotter on a track that is known to be harder on brakes. The car was on brand new ST45 pads. No possibility of knockback certainly not fading. brake pedal was perfectly fine and turned 7 which is the last break zone before this happened car stopped at over 1.1 G in that slight uphill zone.

Evan, the guy with the Honda, could have never seen me coming. lots of conjecture on the internet that seems to indicate that somehow I was being an asshole and pushing him around the track. I was not in fact I was a couple seconds behind him and had actually laid off the lap before because my goal was not to shove him into a mistake. I was not racing him. Time trial is not road racing. There was no reason to dive bomb him. I hit him because the car made an abrupt right turn when the brake pedal went to the floor and it shot me across the inside of the corner and I slammed into him driver side of my car to passenger side of his. It's impossible for him to have known that was going to happen. Where he was in that corner and he was turned away where even if he had looked in his mirror which would be ridiculous at that point he wouldn't have seen anything other than the outside of turn 10 anyway. He was completely innocent. aside from the fact that I was in the car that hit him so was I. There was nothing I could do.

The wheel did not fall off and cause this problem. There isn't brake fluid sprayed everywhere. Even despite the left front wheel being ripped off in the roll. The reservoir was not empty. The brakes didn't have air in them If they did I would had a shitty pedal and I did not. I didn't have a soft pedal I didn't have a pedal I had to pump up. The brakes were there at 7 and not there at 10, At least not there for more than an absolute second when I first went to them.

That corner is not a downshifting corner. I approach it in third I run the whole thing in third I exit in third. I do not let foot brake. There's no way I could have done something like hit the clutch pedal instead of the brake pedal. Because my left foot was on the dead pedal.

The video shows very clearly that there was essentially no deceleration until the car was sideways and just scrubbing speed from that.

I have seen one of their incident with a 1LE have perfectly fine brakes in a corner, and there is video of this, and then have nothing a few seconds down the road. In his case nobody was in front of him and he was going straight and he had a gravel trap to stop him. I was bending left straightening the car up to turn back to the right. Looking at data I was basically going from no brake to max brake In about 1.2 seconds, then over the next roughly 1.5 seconds I was trailing off the pedal because that turn falls away and you need to do that to keep adequate weight on the nose.

When the general public can see the video it includes the two laps prior which I'm sure will show people that it wasn't running around there with no clue. It will show that I had brake pedal. It will show that I didn't do anything different entering that corner on that lap then I had the others.

I had more than adequate fluid. I had more than adequate pads. I was not on some weird strange tire setup. It did not break a wheel. I did not t-bone Evan. Evan could not have done anything about it. I couldn't have done anything about it.

Now, I am sure the internet being the internet somebody will have something to say. I've been doing this a while. Everybody always thinks they know better. And I can tell you that if you haven't been in that position you really can't say you would know anything about it. The two most concerning things to me is that a part of that new had a failure, and that somehow people think I need to be their savior. I am trying to do the right thing here. I kind of want to know what happened. I don't want to put anybody on the defensive. Doing that means I will never find out what happened. If there is an issue I want to see it fixed. It could have been as simple as a brake line failed. I just do not know for sure, and that's the important part I do not know for sure, what exactly happened to cause this particular chain of events. And I don't want to speculate all over the internet about it.

I respectfully ask you guys to do the same. I understand that you would be concerned about possible issues with your car. And I can't say that I blame you. I wish there had been some warning that things were about to go really wrong. There was not In my particular case.

And in closing let me address this thing about the collision avoidance. The car does not have any kind of dynamic braking. It was a 2SS. It's a safety feature that exists in that car and when I programmed things like my power seat position and my power mirror position and stuff like that collision avoidance was on. Because I used it on the street. Because better safe than sorry. All it does is flash at you to warn you that you've got severely high closing speeds. And occasionally it would go off at the track when I was bearing down on somebody who is maybe not on a hot lap. It did not play any factor in this at all.

Nor was any mode on that uses brakes to torque vector the car, there seems to be some people that think maybe I cooked something because of that. I was in none of those modes I was in PTM race. So all that was there was the traction control in the race setting. No stability control nothing grabbing the brakes. And hey why I'm at it it was 64°. It wasn't a hundred. I hadn't been out there for an hour. I think this was my fifth lap of the session. A 1:40 or so per lap, x5, yeah I didn't cook the brake fluid. This car was pretty much as close to a off-the-shelf GM track prep vehicle that you were going to find. It had an alignment better brake fluid and better pads. Aside from a couple little pieces that I was working on to make people's life easier and I'm still working on those by the way, there was nothing mechanical on that car that was altered other than having gotten rid of the crush pipes for actual full size ones.

So that's that. I'm going to ask once again, respectfully, that this doesn't turn into a huge thing with everybody asking me a million questions. The situation sucks it's not been fun. I've had to talk to people about 100,000 times in the last 8 days about it. I'm sore, I'm out a lot of money Even with track insurance. And now I've got people who I've never spoken to on the phone who are not customers of mine calling me wanting to pick my brain about this during the day at work. I can't do it guys. There isn't much more to say other than what I've already said above.

If and when the time comes that I can tell you what is found or what happened or whatever I'm sure you'll be made aware of it quickly.

Did not realize how HIGH the friction profile was on ST45 pads. 600F, ST45’s, heavy car, track that’s not easy on brakes, warm weather, fast pace equals a huge amount of heat into the brake system. Those pads have a friction coefficient higher over a wide temp range than the most aggressive Ferodo full race pads. Interested to see if something beyond boiled fluid.