[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

That would make today's enthusiasts "technology enthusiasts" rather than "car enthusiasts" specifically. Even claiming to be a car enthusiast doesn't necessarily imply that one is a "driving enthusiast".

To an old guy like me, it's rather sad that so many people see cars as little more than another room to sit in while they stay connected with, and served by, technology. Used to be your car was one of the best ways to get a change of pace.


Norm

100% agree and I’m 43.

Sometimes it seems like I’m 93.

This ain’t the America I grew up in the 80s

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

That would make today's enthusiasts "technology enthusiasts" rather than "car enthusiasts" specifically. Even claiming to be a car enthusiast doesn't necessarily imply that one is a "driving enthusiast".

To an old guy like me, it's rather sad that so many people see cars as little more than another room to sit in while they stay connected with, and served by, technology. Used to be your car was one of the best ways to get a change of pace.


Norm

Like this comment! I want car to be like a suit i wear to connect my senses to the road in a way that informs my inputs. And requires skilled inputs to extract the available performance. Driving is fun! Cars that are oriented to driving are fun!

It is disappointing how cars have become more capable, people's skill or desire to use that performance has declined, or would rather be a permanent passenger doing something else.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Like you said, it is more of a computer than a car and the system is responsive and makes traditional infotainment systems feel archaic. Another game changer is over the air software updates. The idea that your car can continue to improve over its lifetime via software is revolutionary. I have seen two 5% power updates, Spotify streaming was added, NAV updates are constantly being updated, voice recognition, Netflix and Hulu, autopilot improvements, driving improvements like true one pedal driving where regen braking will bring the car to a complete stop and apply brake hold, even improvements to to rain sensing wipers algorithm, etc. and the fact that car is managed by an app on your phone. Little features have been added via software along the way like your windows will automatically close if you walk away from the car. You can enable climate protection in case a dog or child was left in the car the AC will keep the cabin cooled. From the app you can see exactly where the car is on a satellite map and how fast it is traveling, etc. The list goes on and on. My point is GM needs to build Camaro that looks great and drives great but in order for them to fully compete they need the software because that will be the differentiator moving forward.

That's a double-edged blade, really. Do you forget that planned obsolescence is a thing, and updates usually assist with that?

Load the computer with updates and eventually, it won't be capable to handle it. We all know what happens with iPhones when they get iOS updates. At least phones and laptops are expected to be replaced every 3 to 5 years, but I don't think most people are fine with that with cars.

Don't forget, they can yank those updates out of your hands anytime when they want you to buy the newest and the latest.

And let's not forget that updates screw up, all the time, especially if they are frequent. I know that Microsoft has gone largely to automated testing with the new updates system and that's why they screw up more than back in Windows XP days. There was one update on my old laptop in particular that conflicted with the dedicated graphics chip and the laptop crashed constantly until the new GPU driver was released like two weeks later.

And most of the features you mentioned, at least to me, are meh. None of them sound particularly useful to me.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

What do any of those things have to do with just driving? Even live traffic has some potential for distraction.

One pedal driving scares me. Especially if you were to have an occasionally-driven car that doesn't have it.

BTW, I'd be a bit careful about praising those 5% power upgrades. It'd be just as easy for an OTA "update" to take 10% away, with or without obvious reason or recourse.


Norm

Live traffic can be useful for commuting, I suppose.

And the last point is very true. Happens more than you think as well.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Isolationism didn’t work in the 1930s and it isn’t going to work in the 2020s. Funny thing about weather and climate. Regions tend to affect other regions. Winds blowing from the Bering Strait impact summer in the Midwest. It tends to not give a shit about man made borders. Nobody said America is following Europe’s emissions standards. We clearly are not and there is no indication that we will. I did mention that some countries in South America and Africa are leaning that way. Not because they wanna be like Europe, but more because Europe has already done the heavy lifting so why re-invent the wheel?


Au contraire mon frere. The reason I am and will continue to be a staunch independent is because neither side has full ownership of great ideas or bullshit scams. Both parties have plenty of both and I owe nothing to either party. I don’t choose to support a policy just because a Republican supports it or just because a Democrat supports it. Does it make sense is my measuring point. Who benefits and at the cost of whom? I am far from Switzerland on the principles I hold dear.

at this point i need to be convinced that EVs are actually going to be environmentally efficient.not only are rare earth metals difficult to obtain,but what about our power grid when half the nation plugs in after work at 530 p.m. and wants to watch TV and run the air conditioner or heater in their houses at the same time.electricity needs to come from some type of powerplant and suffers parasitic losses when transmitted through power lines to the individuals house and charger.the transportation company i used to work for had over 200 hydrogen powered tractor trailers hauling freight with no difficulties.45 minute refueling time which is not worse than EV charging time.are you certain that we are not taking another false trail in our quest for clean energy?BTW i am not an electric car hater as such.if manufacturers could produce a solar panel like the glass roof on certain car models that would extend driving range and lessen the need to charge an EV daily it would go a long ways towards making EVs more practical.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

What do any of those things have to do with just driving? Even live traffic has some potential for distraction.

One pedal driving scares me. Especially if you were to have an occasionally-driven car that doesn't have it.

BTW, I'd be a bit careful about praising those 5% power upgrades. It'd be just as easy for an OTA "update" to take 10% away, with or without obvious reason or recourse.


Norm

For a driving enthusiast, not much but us enthusiasts represent a very small portion of the market. The majority of buyers are hung up on the tech, driving is a chore to them. So, if they find a particular car has other ways to entertain and enhance the driving experience then it becomes desirable.

One pedal driving does not mean the car does not have traditional a brake pedal. It is just a setting the driver can configure. You can set the level of regen braking from the electric motors such that the car actual slows down without the use of friction brakes. Once you get used to this it becomes a little game of timing your release and pressure on the accelerator such that you never even have to apply the friction brakes when coming to a stop. Brake Hold is another setting you can configure whether you want to sit with your foot on the brake or have the car apply brake hold. If you don't like it then you can turn those settings off and it will work more like a traditional ICE based vehicle. The side benefit here is you barely use the friction brakes around town, brake pads can literally last the life of the car. You also get the benefit of extremely low brake dust, which is another thing the eco folks don't want spewing into the air.

As for the power updates, sure a future update could change things but it is unlikely. You have a ton of folks testing these things on Draggy, 1/4 miles tracks, etc. My experience with Tesla so far is they are some cool folks and cater pretty well to enthusiast. Service tickets are opened online via your phone and they come to your house to do repairs and service unless they need a lift at the service center. Remember, they are the other American car company building the first desirable electric cars. I mean who else is building cars like this?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

That's a double-edged blade, really. Do you forget that planned obsolescence is a thing, and updates usually assist with that?

Load the computer with updates and eventually, it won't be capable to handle it. We all know what happens with iPhones when they get iOS updates. At least phones and laptops are expected to be replaced every 3 to 5 years, but I don't think most people are fine with that with cars.

Don't forget, they can yank those updates out of your hands anytime when they want you to buy the newest and the latest.

And let's not forget that updates screw up, all the time, especially if they are frequent. I know that Microsoft has gone largely to automated testing with the new updates system and that's why they screw up more than back in Windows XP days. There was one update on my old laptop in particular that conflicted with the dedicated graphics chip and the laptop crashed constantly until the new GPU driver was released like two weeks later.

True, in fact some of these features require a monthly subscription. As for the potential for screw ups, sure it is possible and there have been minor glitches and changes to the UI that some folks don't like but on the flip side they can be fixed via a future update rather than having to bring it to the dealer and start troubleshooting and throwing parts at it. The software updates go through internal testing and then out to the beta users for feedback before they get pushed out to the entire fleet. You also have the option of not receiving the update if you don't want to. You can keep denying it when offered or you can just not connect your car to Wi-Fi which will prevent it from being able to download the new update. The updates do come out pretty quickly. Over the past two years I have seen about one per month on average but they have slowed a bit lately.

As for the obsolescence, I totally agree but a few things come to mind. When you buy a traditional ICE based vehicle, you get what you get in that model year and that it pretty much it. You may doing your own mods and such but for the most part you are stuck with the systems and software it came with. Auto infotainment systems show their age real quick. With the Tesla architecture and hopefully GM and others you can upgrade the computer pretty much like you do on your home PC. You may be stuck limited to a certain family of processors, bus speeds, etc. but there is some upgradeability. For example, my Tesla has what they call HW3 computer, which is the latest hardware that adds the performance necessary for the autonomous driving endeavor. Don't get me started on that topic as I am not a fan of that idea. Anyway, owners have been able to upgrade their computer from HW2.5 to HW3, which enables the FSD visual features. Most notably, is the visual elements the cameras seeing are presented on the display of the screen in real-time. Traffic-lights, cones, signs, people, other cars and your proximity to them via the radar system, etc. It is not really useful but pretty cool as they continue to develop the software. The cars come with a 4 year 50,000 miles bumper-to-bumper warranty and 8 year/100,000 mile coverage on the powertrain and battery. For me, I don't usually keep cars that long but yes, the car will probably start to feel like an iPhone 5 at some point. It will still drive well, but the tech will start to look dated at some point for sure. By that time I would expect a battery replacement to cost about the same as a transmission replacement. If the 80kw battery is $7,500 today, then maybe $3500 5-10 years from now... Leasing is pretty popular for cars like this but I tell you what the resale on the Tesla Model 3 has been pretty good. My wifes Telsa Model 3 SR+ was $40k then subtract the $3,750 tax credit so $36,250. Carvanna is offering $34,589 after 2 years and 21,000 miles.

[FarmerFran]

That Tesla is $115,000.

Heck the base with paint, wheels and auto pilot is $100K

[Hops]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

As for the power updates, sure a future update could change things but it is unlikely. You have a ton of folks testing these things on Draggy, 1/4 miles tracks, etc. My experience with Tesla so far is they are some cool folks and cater pretty well to enthusiast. Service tickets are opened online via your phone and they come to your house to do repairs and service unless they need a lift at the service center. Remember, they are the other American car company building the first desirable electric cars. I mean who else is building cars like this?

The plaid is interesting, but i can't find anything on it's trackworthiness. Yeah there's that laguna seca fast lap, but you'd think they'd be more eager to explain it's limitations after the model s lightning lap. And strangely, they won't even give MotorTrend a model 3 for the lightning lap either. tesla might be be producing cars that will 'beat' ICE cars, but they sure aren't targeting a passion for driving. You'd think they would participate in forumla E, and what happened to the FIA approved model S racing series?

[JBinSD]

I'm actually a bit of a counter-point in this debate. I had a babied, 2SS M6 vert; and kept borrowing my wife's TM3 to commute. She was afraid to drive my drop-top, so she kept saying "no" to switching cars.
I originally planned to lease the lowest level Model 3, but then drove the full TM3 Performance. It was far quicker than my SS; unfortunately my wife said you can only have one. Bad idea.
Now I have been shopping used 'Maro Verts and there are almost none. Possibly my first automotive regret? Maybe. I still love to smoke anyone off the line in my Tesla, but I miss dropping the top, rowing the gears, and feeling the power. After the kid gets through college, I will defo have a droptop M6 again, but its hard to wait, and hard to turn my back on Tesla. Decisions, decisions. . .

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

That Tesla is $115,000.

Heck the base with paint, wheels and auto pilot is $100K

yeah, the Model S is expensive. I also don't think it handles as nice as the Model 3. The Model 3 even the Dual Motor LR at $48k will plant you back in your seat to make it feel faster than anything you ever driven. They even offer an over the air software update for $2k if you want to drop the 0-60 time from 4.0 sec to 3.5 sec and about four tenths off the 1/4 mile at 11.9 sec. I went with the Performance, because well, why not, at $57k. Still cheaper than a BMW or ZL1 and gobs of performance. Until you drive one you will not understand what is meant by instant torque. They deliver power differently since you get all the torque right away, no need to build torque or be in the sweet spot for power, it is always available. The torque is what makes them feels so fast combined that without the noise and vibration it creates for a strange experience. It is hard to put into words but it feels so easy to go fast since it is so effortless. That said, if you are addicted to rowing your own gears and hearing the bellow of the exhaust note then you will miss it, which is why I always suggest both. I think the EV is the much better daily driver. It is a point and shoot type of car, super smooth, listen to the awesome sound system and let autopilot drive if you fell lazy on the highway. The Camaro or any other ICE based car with a manual, top down, and exhaust for when you are in the mood.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

The plaid is interesting, but i can't find anything on it's trackworthiness. Yeah there's that laguna seca fast lap, but you'd think they'd be more eager to explain it's limitations after the model s lightning lap. And strangely, they won't even give MotorTrend a model 3 for the lightning lap either. tesla might be be producing cars that will 'beat' ICE cars, but they sure aren't targeting a passion for driving. You'd think they would participate in forumla E, and what happened to the FIA approved model S racing series?

Yeah, I think it is still evolving. Tesla is a growing company so they probably don't have enough time to dedicate to this effort. It looks like some of the aftermarket is helping to drive this.

Randy Pobst has been pretty active with Tesla. This was a pretty cool video on him talking to a group about tracking Tesla cars. I know this is a Camaro forum, I am just hopeful that once GM starts releasing their EVs they release something cool that has a following and aftermarket like we are seeing with Tesla.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

The plaid is interesting, but i can't find anything on it's trackworthiness. Yeah there's that laguna seca fast lap, but you'd think they'd be more eager to explain it's limitations after the model s lightning lap. And strangely, they won't even give MotorTrend a model 3 for the lightning lap either. tesla might be be producing cars that will 'beat' ICE cars, but they sure aren't targeting a passion for driving. You'd think they would participate in forumla E, and what happened to the FIA approved model S racing series?

Here is another video of him driving some goober's Tesla Model 3 on track. Some hate the lack of noise and other love that they can hear what the tires are doing. I can't stop laughing at how scared he looks in the passenger seat.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by JBinSD

I'm actually a bit of a counter-point in this debate. I had a babied, 2SS M6 vert; and kept borrowing my wife's TM3 to commute. She was afraid to drive my drop-top, so she kept saying "no" to switching cars.
I originally planned to lease the lowest level Model 3, but then drove the full TM3 Performance. It was far quicker than my SS; unfortunately my wife said you can only have one. Bad idea.
Now I have been shopping used 'Maro Verts and there are almost none. Possibly my first automotive regret? Maybe. I still love to smoke anyone off the line in my Tesla, but I miss dropping the top, rowing the gears, and feeling the power. After the kid gets through college, I will defo have a droptop M6 again, but its hard to wait, and hard to turn my back on Tesla. Decisions, decisions. . .

I feel the same, which is why I went and bought a little Miata so I can rip through the gears with the top down when I am in the mood. The Tesla is the daily and the Miata is for when the weather is nice and in the mood to drop the top and rip through the gears. At 2300lbs it is so tossable it can still be fun on the street as you can reach the limits far easier. If you just want a cruiser then the Challengers fir the bill pretty nicely. I drove the new C8 Corvette a couple weeks ago and that was a blast as well. Cars are addictive, but hey we need to enjoy them while we can.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I have to ask how much of that 'significant laxness' is coming from the fact that larger vehicles - SUVs, vans, and trucks - are allowed to meet lower mpg targets than smaller vehicles using footprint based methodology.


Norm

A lot. But that’s what’s making the domestic 3 profitable.