[rocket403]

I'm with newmoon as this is a Camaro forum so every win is a earth shaking victory and every loss has an excuse or some other comment.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So let me get this right. When a ZL1 beats a GT350R which is running worn tires it is a earth shaking victory for the ZL1. When in theory a GT500 beats a GT40 on worn tires its like beating a GT40 in limp mode. Just want to make sure I have this correct.

Show me in the video or print article where they say the Shelby was on worn tires.

At about 18:50 Jonny asks Randy - “Why does the Shelby feel slower to you?”. Randy replies “Torque - the ZL1 has so much torque”. I.e. the Shelby does not.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I'm with newmoon as this is a Camaro forum so every win is a earth shaking victory and every loss has an excuse or some other comment.

[Ethanolic]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Show me in the video or print article where they say the Shelby was on worn tires.

I’ve already answered that question, you should be able to find it.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

Are you clowns seriously disputing the article as written by the people who drove the cars. That’s a new low even for this crowd. They make no mention of the Z’s tires being worn, they both make comments regarding the R’s.

Chadicus brought up the tire nonsense because he mistakenly believed it bolstered the ZL1’s case, when in fact the opposite is true.

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

I’ve already answered that question, you should be able to find it.

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

Chris Walton comments about the worn tires when describing launching the R in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile portion of the article.

This doesnt exactly answer the question, but as a clown, what do I know.

[BlaqWhole]

Ok so the GT500 can beat the shit out of a Ford GT then. Congrats to Ford for making a $450K 3,000 pound supercar that gets it's ass kicked on a track by a $90K Mustang that weighs over 4,000 pounds.

[BlaqWhole]

And since the GT500 is now officially faster than the Ford GT around a track, that means it should have no problem beating the ZLE or Z06 or ZR1 around a track too. So I'll be eagerly waiting to see how that all plays out. Because if the ZLE beats the GT500, then that means GM's 4K pound $70K Camaro is a GT500 asskicker!!

[Martinjlm]

I just renewed insurance on my musical instrument inventory. That exercise gives me a slightly different perspective on the “worth it or not” discussion as well as the ADM discussion on GT500. Here’s why...

I own 8 bass guitars. As part of the renewal I have to confirm the replacement value of each. They range in replacement value from $299 to $24,900. Now, for the places I play, any of the 8 basses will do the job just fine. Some better than others, but there is no place that I play that requires a $25k bass. But yet I have one and I have no desire to part with it because it is worth it to me. Just like there are few if any places where a driver needs a $78 - 97k Mustang. Yet, to those who want the car, with or without painted on stripes, with or without ADM, it is worth it. Comparing it to other cars on the basis of price is also a pretty hollow argument. Whether or not it is worth $20k more than a ZL1 or ZLE should not be the question except to the person who is shopping for one and is indifferent to brand or configuration. At the performance level of these cars, buyer’s preference can be driven by any number of things, ranging from the 1/10s of seconds difference in performance measures that most will never test to the availability of a manual transmission or not to I just prefer the way this one looks compared to that one. Thing is, no matter which is chosen and for what reason, for the person doing the choosing, it’s the right answer.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I just renewed insurance on my musical instrument inventory. That exercise gives me a slightly different perspective on the “worth it or not” discussion as well as the ADM discussion on GT500. Here’s why...

I own 8 bass guitars. As part of the renewal I have to confirm the replacement value of each. They range in replacement value from $299 to $24,900. Now, for the places I play, any of the 8 basses will do the job just fine. Some better than others, but there is no place that I play that requires a $25k bass. But yet I have one and I have no desire to part with it because it is worth it to me. Just like there are few if any places where a driver needs a $78 - 97k Mustang. Yet, to those who want the car, with or without painted on stripes, with or without ADM, it is worth it. Comparing it to other cars on the basis of price is also a pretty hollow argument. Whether or not it is worth $20k more than a ZL1 or ZLE should not be the question except to the person who is shopping for one and is indifferent to brand or configuration. At the performance level of these cars, buyer’s preference can be driven by any number of things, ranging from the 1/10s of seconds difference in performance measures that most will never test to the availability of a manual transmission or not to I just prefer the way this one looks compared to that one. Thing is, no matter which is chosen and for what reason, for the person doing the choosing, it’s the right answer.

Your $24K bass guitar would have qualities and a sound to it that your $299 unit would never be able to replicate. I might not be able to distinguish the difference. But I know for a fact that your audience, or your expected audience, would determine which unit you use. All items have a value. For example, if a place was trying to sell your $299 bass guitar or a comparable unit for $24K, you'd know instantly that it is not worth that price. However, if a person had a sentimental attachment to that particular unit, then they would likely pay more for it than you would. So yea, value is determined by the buyer...to a certain extent. Just like those who ridicule buying a $70K ZL1 when you can buy a base SS and throw a used blower it for half the price. But those of us who bought a ZL1 know that it isn't that simple. Just like it isn't that simple of a comparison between your guitars.

Let me ask. Based on your statement about what is worth the price to the individual buyer...if someone paid $70K for a base model GT, would it be worth it?

[hotlap]

Worn tires?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Your $24K bass guitar would have qualities and a sound to it that your $299 unit would never be able to replicate. I might not be able to distinguish the difference. But I know for a fact that your audience, or your expected audience, would determine which unit you use.

Actually, I know this to be NOT true. Pretty much the opposite. I can tell the difference between most of my basses. Experienced bass players can also probably hear the difference. Most music connoisseurs (who pay us for the music) would be shockingly incapable of telling from a blind listen if I was playing a $1,500 Music Man bass or a $25k Alembic.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

All items have a value. For example, if a place was trying to sell your $299 bass guitar or a comparable unit for $24K, you'd know instantly that it is not worth that price. However, if a person had a sentimental attachment to that particular unit, then they would likely pay more for it than you would. So yea, value is determined by the buyer...to a certain extent.

But that construct would never happen. VISUALLY there is a dramatic difference between my $299 Fender Squier Jazz Bass and my $25k Alembic Series II. No mistaking that. Let’s call that the difference between a $30k Camaro SS and a $250k Bentley GT. I picked those two cars because they are a factor of 10 over the two bass bookends. They are both 2-door GT coupes. Both faster than most people will regularly drive. From 30 yards away, the Bentley looks better and more expensive than the Camaro. Doesn’t contribute to going faster, but definitely contributes to the buyer’s sense of getting more value. And there will still be some who say the much less expensive Camaro looks better. My Alembic looks better than my Fender Squier, even though I am sure I can find more than a handful of people who just don’t like the way an Alembic looks and will thusly conclude that the Fender Squier looks better. The Bentley no doubt has better materials and workmanship than the Camaro. Likewise the Alembic to the Squier. In both cases, the quality of materials contributes very little to the primary function of the product.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Just like those who ridicule buying a $70K ZL1 when you can buy a base SS and throw a used blower it for half the price. But those of us who bought a ZL1 know that it isn't that simple. Just like it isn't that simple of a comparison between your guitars.

Exactly! Yet there is an accessories industry around Fender guitars and basses that is set up for the people who would rather hot rod their $300 - 1,800 Fender bass to be (in their opinion) on par with a $5,000 Sadowsky bass. And that industry does quite well. As does Sadowsky. There’s room for different approaches. The arguments we have here on Camaro6 and on Mustang6 over value and efficacy of mods happens on the bass forums that I frequent. Substitute Sadowsky for ZL1 and SS for Fender. Substitute Music Man for Mustang (although there is a Fender Mustang bass and a Warwick Corvette ) and the arguments write themselves.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Let me ask. Based on your statement about what is worth the price to the individual buyer...if someone paid $70K for a base model GT, would it be worth it?

With all due respect, that is a wildly illogical question. Nobody will voluntarily pay more for something that they can get all day at a much more reasonable price. A base model GT is not a GT500 and nobody would ever confuse the two. When I talk about what things are worth to the buyer, I am talking for the most part about things that are not central to the overall function of the product. Before I went online to verify my instrument replacement costs, I had posted something on M6G basically saying that the base GT500 was appropriately priced, but criticizing the cost of the painted on stripes. Then I looked at the screen I had just pulled up and noticed the option price for the Continuous Wood Backplates should I ever have to replace my Alembic. And I facepalmed. When I ordered this bass back in 1999 (it was waaaay below $25k back then) the Continuous Wood Backplates were a gotta have option for me. Even though they add NOTHING to the functionality of the instrument. Even though when I’m playing the bass, NOBODY can see them. Not even me. But I had to have them and paid an option price equivalent to the full price of an entry level lower brand of bass. They are my painted on stripes. The electronics package is my CFTP.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

With all due respect, that is a wildly illogical question. Nobody will voluntarily pay more for something that they can get all day at a much more reasonable price. A base model GT is not a GT500 and nobody would ever confuse the two. When I talk about what things are worth to the buyer, I am talking for the most part about things that are not central to the overall function of the product. Before I went online to verify my instrument replacement costs, I had posted something on M6G basically saying that the base GT500 was appropriately priced, but criticizing the cost of the painted on stripes. Then I looked at the screen I had just pulled up and noticed the option price for the Continuous Wood Backplates should I ever have to replace my Alembic. And I facepalmed. When I ordered this bass back in 1999 (it was waaaay below $25k back then) the Continuous Wood Backplates were a gotta have option for me. Even though they add NOTHING to the functionality of the instrument. Even though when I’m playing the bass, NOBODY can see them. Not even me. But I had to have them and paid an option price equivalent to the full price of an entry level lower brand of bass. They are my painted on stripes. The electronics package is my CFTP.

I asked that question for a reason. It was exaggerated to make a point. You stated that "Whether or not it is worth $20k more than a ZL1 or ZLE should not be the question except to the person who is shopping for one". However those of us who are saying that it is not worth the price over a ZL1 or ZLE ARE those of us who are shopping for one. Or were shopping for one. AT $20K more than a ZL1 and ZLE, if it can only match both of those cars, then the performance per dollar of that car would be way off. And most of us are shopping that car for it's performance as it would have very little practical use. If it was the size of a Hellcat and was much more roomy and more comfortable, then one could argue that overall it is worth the extra money. But if the performance was the only consideration, and if it did not perform as well as a car costing $20K less, then although the individual buyer would have to make the decision for himself, it would not be a worthwhile purchase. Now if it was a M5, then like I said, practicality of 4 doors vs 2, AWD vs RWD, and luxury vs econo (in comparison), along with other features and tech one could argue the case in favor of the M5 even if it is $30K more expensive. But GT500 vs ZLE is a different story. If it beats the ZLE, well it costs $20K more. If it loses, then damn, it is $20K more and still can't beat the ZLE??

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I just renewed insurance on my musical instrument inventory. That exercise gives me a slightly different perspective on the “worth it or not” discussion as well as the ADM discussion on GT500. Here’s why...

I own 8 bass guitars. As part of the renewal I have to confirm the replacement value of each. They range in replacement value from $299 to $24,900. Now, for the places I play, any of the 8 basses will do the job just fine. Some better than others, but there is no place that I play that requires a $25k bass. But yet I have one and I have no desire to part with it because it is worth it to me. Just like there are few if any places where a driver needs a $78 - 97k Mustang. Yet, to those who want the car, with or without painted on stripes, with or without ADM, it is worth it. Comparing it to other cars on the basis of price is also a pretty hollow argument. Whether or not it is worth $20k more than a ZL1 or ZLE should not be the question except to the person who is shopping for one and is indifferent to brand or configuration. At the performance level of these cars, buyer’s preference can be driven by any number of things, ranging from the 1/10s of seconds difference in performance measures that most will never test to the availability of a manual transmission or not to I just prefer the way this one looks compared to that one. Thing is, no matter which is chosen and for what reason, for the person doing the choosing, it’s the right answer.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I asked that question for a reason. It was exaggerated to make a point. You stated that "Whether or not it is worth $20k more than a ZL1 or ZLE should not be the question except to the person who is shopping for one". However those of us who are saying that it is not worth the price over a ZL1 or ZLE ARE those of us who are shopping for one. Or were shopping for one. AT $20K more than a ZL1 and ZLE, if it can only match both of those cars, then the performance per dollar of that car would be way off. And most of us are shopping that car for it's performance as it would have very little practical use. If it was the size of a Hellcat and was much more roomy and more comfortable, then one could argue that overall it is worth the extra money. But if the performance was the only consideration, and if it did not perform as well as a car costing $20K less, then although the individual buyer would have to make the decision for himself, it would not be a worthwhile purchase. Now if it was a M5, then like I said, practicality of 4 doors vs 2, AWD vs RWD, and luxury vs econo (in comparison), along with other features and tech one could argue the case in favor of the M5 even if it is $30K more expensive. But GT500 vs ZLE is a different story. If it beats the ZLE, well it costs $20K more. If it loses, then damn, it is $20K more and still can't beat the ZLE??

The parts in BLUE are why I was saying people shopping for a performance car, but indifferent to brand or configuration would focus on comparing the price based solely on the performance. For some people, brand and/or configuration are also folded into the equation. For some there is a threshold of performance that is important. Anything beyond the threshold is gravy, especially if it comes at a reasonable price. When I bought my car, there was a performance threshold that the car had to meet, which pretty much meant it had to be a V8 or a twin turbo V6 (example...ATS-V). But it also had to be a convertible. Bye bye ATS-V. And SS 1LE which I think is best bang for the buck.

That meant it could be an SS vert, a ZL1 vert, a Grand Sport vert, a Z06 vert or a Mustang GT vert. There were three options that out-perform the car I eventually bought. Why didn’t I buy one of those? Price differential? It was a factor, but at the end of the day, the Grand Sport and Z06 verts missed the cut because I prefer the way Camaro verts look compared to Corvette verts with the roof up. Even though both perform better. The Mustang vert fell out for the same reason, but the SS vert is also a better performing car, so there’s that. So...why not the ZL1 vert? To be honest, I can thank Michigan’s current insurance situation for that. The difference in cost of insurance between an SS vert and a ZL1 vert is freakin’ criminal.

As you can see, it was not a question of performance / $. There was a number of additional non-performance and non-price factors that went into the final purchase decision. At the end of the day, when I saw the Fifty vert on the dealer floor, I pretty much decided that day. THEN started working out pricing.

[Ethanolic]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

This doesnt exactly answer the question, but as a clown, what do I know.

Sorry, not going to count how many words or lines into the article for him. It’s a pretty short article, take a couple minutes and you’ll see it yourself.